Do something for the raiding guilds!

hear hear!!! very good post

[p]I still think we have been flogging this horse to death all over the months and the years. But still, people insist over and over and over again on the same mythical propositions... what I call "the raider monomyth". I find it too difficult to pass without, at least, express my disagreement once more.[/p][p]Pinski wrote: "Except, the developers of the game stated they were going to add progression to the game. And as of right now, that so-called progression doesn't exist."[/p][p]A typical raider statement. When a raider says "hardcore", she means raiding. And when a raider says "the game" she means the raiding playstyle. According to a raider the only progression possible in a MMORPG is the raid progression... if the raid progression doesnt exist, then the game is stagnant and there is no progression at all. Obviously thats a dialectical trap and an obvious falsehood.[/p][p]In this regard, it is very respectable the attitude of the OP, on the lines that "I like raiding and I want raiding to be more fully supported". Period. You can agree or disagree, but at least is respectful and doesnt prejudge "per se" the lesser nature of the non raiding game. A game can have progression perfectly well designed without it involving raiding in any form, you know, it could be possible... non desirable from my point of view (I think every playstyle should be supported) and despicable from yours, but possible.[/p][p]But the point is this game HAS a raiding progression pretty well defined. If you mean this game is not the raiding fest that EQ1 came to be, in which you had to raid to get the flag to be able to raid for the flagging that gave you the password to the raid that could give you access to the flagging raid... and, in the process, the people who didnt raid or belonged to one of the raid cartels (no longer guilds, mind you, but power structures with very stern admitance requisites that, very effectively, controlled the game), had to keep paying the fee and be content with the few dungeons and story lines developed for groupers, then yes, youre right, there is no RAID PROGRESSION like the one known in EQ1. Thats why many many people left EQ1 to come over here: to be able o begin anew in a MMORPG without having to be a raid slave and have fun again with their friends and groups. But the progression exists, for raiding and... gasp!!! yes, even for groupers. And also even for soloers. Progression exists alright, but it is not limited to one playstyle. Even so, most of the real worthwhile drops and all of the end storylines REQUIRES still raids.[/p][p]Conclusion: EQ2 is not a raid ONLY progression game. True. But it is false it doesnt have a progression as a game and in every playstyle.[/p][p] Noaani wrote: "The reason I, as well as many other raiders, are able to solo/duo heroic content is because of 2 reasons. [/p][p]First, we are better at this game than you![/p][p]Second, we put the time and effort in to figuring out how to get around a new challange. It took me a very long time to figure out how to kill the end mob in Nest, and I died maybe 100 times to him before i managed it. Now I am able to kill him first pull every time. How many casual players are willing to die to a mob 100 times before they figure out that they CAN solo it?[/p][p]People that dont raid in this game fall in to one of three groups, those that dislike it, those that are not able to attend the game for 2 hour peroids, and those with self inferoir complexs. The people that complain about raiders almost always (almost...) fall in to the last group."[/p][p]More of the raider monomyth. And obviously false. As I said earlier Im playing EQ1 since Kunark and belonged to a raiding guild. All these years Ive been a respected player, both when I raided and when I decided to have fun again playing. I dont pretend to be the ultimate player, but Ive been on most places and done a lot of things. And met a lot of people, both in and out raid guilds. There are excellent players that are hardcore raiders. There are horrible players that are hardcore raiders. And there are excellent players that avoid raids like the plague. Non raider healers that can keep you alive against adds and adds with no cc while ghetto mezzing some, chanters that can mezz a whole colony of adds in a couple seconds while you ask yourself how the heck they are doing it and tanks that grab aggro from adds as if she actually were shouting curses on a virtual teamspeak and the mobs were listening. Some of them are raiders, some arent. And some raiding healers never went beyond the line: "Complete Heal on Poetelia in 10 secs. Healer 02 next...".[/p][p]You know and I know. Ive met a soloer in Living Tombs, a 55 conjuror who had been soloing all the game, bent on doing the timed part of the peacock quest when you have to pull 5 named skellies from different parts of the court, while see invis and non see invis mobs patrolled all the place. He told me he had died already 30 or 40 times and he knew all the pathing of the roamers and had it timed, so he did know where it intersected with other adds. Also he had to clear the see invis adds and hope they were replaced by non see invis adds to be able to do everything in time, while pulling from afar the said mobs. I never found out if he did it in the end. I would say no, at least not at that 55 level, with everything aggro. But if he did, in my book he would have deserved any fabled he could have won raiding.[/p][p]How many times I have been in a pu group for a hard ldon back in EQ1 and one of the guys sported that nice latin tag we all knew in Zeb server belonged to that high end raiding guild... and later the run ended disastrously just because the uber healer was nuking and not healing, wasnt able to mezz a couple of adds or didnt find fun to assist the MT (yes, as if she was a noob, exactly), and left the group at the middle of the run because "you guys suck!". Of course, that wasnt always the case, but this has happened to me several times, so not every raider is an uber, not even a good, not even an average player. In raiding guilds, as in groups, as in solo persons, you can find all kind of players. Because, Noaani, believe or not, there are hardcore players on all playstyles. So quit looking at your own umbilicus pretending that outside your mythical raiding world only the Chaos reigns.[/p][p]How many casual players are willing to die to a mob 100 times to see if its possible to kill it solo? you ask. Answer: none. But once more, you try to use the dialectical falsehood that equates casual with non raider. As I said before there are raiders that are very casual and non raiders that are very hardcore. It comes to mind a post made by a raider some months ago... she said she was in a raiding guild, raided 4 or 5 days a week, around 4 hours every time. She said the penalty for dying on raids had to be lessened, because she had a life outside the game... she couldnt be all that time raiding AND spend later more time in the game farming money to pay for the repairs at the same time. HEY, SHE HAD A LIFE!! :lol:. How casual it sounds!![/p][p]So, a real hardcore player would try 100 times to kill a mob... only a hardcore doesnt mean the player has to be a raider. Quit equating that 2 words.[/p][p]And lastly, the people that complain about raiders are usually people that find the raiding game boring and feel that every interesting lore line or gear comes that way. The same that the people that complains about non raiders (casuals, they call them using the raider monomyth) are raiders that feel that the game design is tilting towards another playstyle. it has nothing to do with inferiority complex. Actually I could make an argument about inferiority complexes turning around your own statement, against raiders this time and their need to be seen as superior and be praised as uber. It would have the same value as yours tho. It would be vain and unsupported. And false.[/p][p]Lastly Sarynety wrote: "I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feels the way I do. For those of you who think I was wining its not necessarily about "the gear" its about putting the incentive back in game to raid". With all due respect Sarynety, if its not about the gear, what incentive are we talking about here? And this is not a cynic question, I just missed the other incentives you are talking about here on your other post.[/p][p]"It sounds like a few of you who have passed judgement haven't ever belonged to a raiding guild. It's a fun style of game play. You form a bond / closeness with people in game that in unparalleled. You gather a group of 24 people with the same goal who are willing to work just as hard at accomplishing that goal as you are". I have belonged to a raiding guild. And I can tell you Ive formed more bonds of closeness with people on non raiding guilds that in a raiding guild. Im not saying it cant happen, Im saying that was not my experience and also that people that dont raid are not stupid automatons that play a game to giggle... those people have also goals and work hard to get them, only they dont raid. My experience in raiding guilds is that most people are there to get the uber gear, their dkps, and outside that, there is very little sharing or helping with other stuff in the game. Im sure its not always that way, but dont try to sell raiding guilds as the paramount of all camaraderie and the non raiding guilds as a happy go lucky bunch who logs into the game to access an especialized chat room.[/p][p]"Raid mobs are tougher then group mobs, their reward should be greater. There should be no grey line (OR AN EXTREAMLY SMALL ONE) as to Ohhh Is this fabled raid drop that just fell an upgrade to the wrist I got in oob or not? Humm It's close". Hmm I thought we werent talking about gear...[/p][p]"Many of you seem too think I want the death of casual game content. That's not the intent of this post. I want there to be a reason for people to look to join raiding guilds Other then OHHH yea we get to pay repair cost nightly and face the hardest mobs in the game for a shot at loot that is only a situational upgrade". You mean you dont want the death of the NON RAIDING game. As I said non-raiding is NOT the same as casual. The reason for people to join raiding guilds should be they like raiding. Period.[/p][p]"There is a value to raiding for me, I enjoy it (regardless of what loot drops). I always have and hopefully always will. I love listing to teamspeak erupt after you take a mob down for the first time that has previously been a roadblock. I enjoy that feeling". Good for you! Im glad youre enjoying your playstyle almost as much I do mine.[/p][p]"If there had been no reason in EQ1 for me to seek out a raiding guild, I probably would have never learned the thrill of raiding. My play style would have never been challenged or pushed to be at the level it currently is. Sony gave me a reason in EQ1 to advance and improve and I just don't see that incentive being as strong here in eq2. Its ashame". Youve been lucky... you found the camaraderie you were looking for in a raiding guild and you found a playstyle you loved. Thats great ! That should be your incentive. If not... well, I did leave EQ1 for that reason and came here. I recognized that game wasnt for me. With all due respect, maybe you should do the same and go back.[/p][p]"I will continue to raid and if gear and risk vs reward continues to be diminished in raid zones vs groupable instance, I guess at some point it will hit a wall with me and I'll be forced to make a decision. But this is my play style. I didn't demean anyone for there play style I just asked for sony to help foster growth in the raiding community". And I hope Sony listens to you and gives you more raidable content. But you shouldnt judge your content in terms of the value of the drops regarding other playstyles.[/p][p]Poetelia Roseknight[/p][p]Paladin of Qeynos[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]

[p]This is the part I am going to play with for now...[/p][p]The statement I made above about non raiders fitting in to three groups still stands. To try and turn round the inferiority complex mentioned back to raids is rather foolish. This is not a statement about the amount of content, or the attention from the developers. The statement, had you read and understoodf it, was that there is a large portion of the community that do not bother trying to raid because they think its for "those people over there".[/p][p]How can you turn that around on to a group of people that said "Hey, I am good enough to do that as well, I'm going to give it a go!"[/p][p]That is the total opposite of feeling inferoir. Current raiders (the ones that were not raiding since T5) got over the stigma involved with raiding, and decided that they WERE good enough to raid as well. Those people that are on at peak times, and want to have all that gear, but never tried raiding, those are the ones that think they are imferoir to those that have tried raiding.[/p][p]I am aware that raiding is not for everyone, as i pointed out above. Those that have tried it and decided they can play the game and enjoy it without raiding, good for you! Those that do not have the time to raid, I say look more closely at how long it actually takes to raid, talk to some raid guilds, then decide if you have time. Those that want to try raiding, the ones that are always on during prime time, the ones that are often on the server channels hassling raiders, these are the ones that have an inferoirity complex. They want to be one of the cool kids with the flash toys, but they are holding themselves back because they think they are not good enough (or because they made too much of an **** of themselves on the public channels and now no raid guild will take them).[/p][p]Again, this is not raiders. Raiders have seen what they want, they have found out how to get it, and they have done what was needed. This is the opposite of feeling inferior.[/p]

[p]There is no way someone can feel inferior for not raiding. Or lets say its theoretically possible, but certainly very rare. Because to raid you dont need to be "good enough". The only thing you need is like the raiding playstyle enough to do it. Period. You dont need to be Superman, or have the training of a SEAL or the mind of Stephen Hawkings.[/p][p]But apparently, according to the raider monomyth, a raider is an echelon above the rest... to be one, you have to be good enough... if you suddenly find out you are not that good you are soooo bitter you can only come here at the boards or there at the channels to vent all your dissapointment in your own uselessness... Is that it? One can only wonder how can someone possibly reach the conclussion that a raider is a special person and not everybody can be one... Okies, I wont even have to answer that. It disqualifies on itself.[/p][p]"Doing what was needed" is not a tremendous feat in this case. The fact that you are using the same resounding phrase applicable to the 101st Airborne guys on 2WW just to put an example, doesnt makes raiding a superhuman feat. Its just a playstyle. Everyone and their little puppies are good enough to play any style on a comercial MMORPG designed for thousands of people. Feeling elite for that reveals some kind of dream palace mind fabrication that could well be described as an incapability of keeping in total touch with reality. The need to build that obvious dream thought may well be derived of some kind of complex... or just lack of rational thought.[/p][p]And by the way.... Im glad you stated in your former post that you are sooo good a raider that you can even reach a superior step on this game and solo Nest. Im sure soloers will welcome this recognition in a raider.:lol:[/p][p]Poetelia Roseknight[/p][p]Paladin of Qeynos[/p][p] [/p]

Poetelia's post was rather long, but I agree with the overall sentiment. I don't raid, partly because I don't really like it, and partly because I play in smaller blocks of time or with semi-frequent AFKs. I still enjoy any challenge I can find in the game, and consider myself a "good player", or as good as one can be in the confines of this game. I too can solo the Nest and have soloed some things other people told me would be impossible at the time. I am actually willing to die over and over to do something solo that I could have done easily in a group. I enjoy stretching my character's limits and attacking a challenge that isn't normally meant for one person. The only fabled gear I have I bought off the broker from raiding guilds, and I believe that soloists can actually benefit from the raiding guilds because of that "trickle down" effect. I spend my time earning cash here and there, and can buy myself gear that brings me closer to "raiding equipment" level, without having to put in the blocks of time to raid. My main point is, challenge can be found anywhere in the game, whether you're solo, grouped or a raid. The rewards shouldn't always be the same, but just because raiding may not be challenging or progressive enough, other parts of the game certainly are!

[p]Pfft, soloing nest at 70 is easy (except for the last mob, as I have already said). Soloing Bastion of Flames at 50 was hard, soloing poets palace at 60 was hard. Soloing the NB in EL at 50 was boring, back in the day when wizards could solo epics.[/p][p]If you had have actually read the posts i have posted in this thread, you would have understood that raiding is not hard, doing what it takes to get in to raiding is not hard either. I am aware of this. Raiding, especially entry level raid, is among the easiest things to do in this game. However, there are people out there (I used to be guilded with a few of these people) that think raiding is only for those that raid... those that raid are easy to spot because they are covered in fabled loot, and talk **** on the server channels.[/p][p]As for doing what was needed not being a tremendous feat, well, that depends on the situation. In my case, what was needed was taking a guild full of casual players aside and convincing them that they WERE able to raid (this was about the time of GU#8). Trying to convince them that it was possible to have more than 2 raiding guild on a given server, and trying to convince them that we could complete a raid in less than 90 minutes. Once I had convinced them that we should at least try it, I then had to figure out how to actually raid... this story could go on for a very long time, but its enough to say that "what is needed" is not always just joining a guild that is already raiding. I'll end this paragraph by saying that by GU#13, we were raiding every T5 instance successfully.[/p][p]You are right though, in order to be a raider (as you may have noticed if you can read what is typed above, this is comming from someone that has been raiding longer than most have been playing this game) all you need to do is want to raid. The fact that it takes so little to actually be able to raid does not mean people KNOW that is all it takes. Yes, there are people out there that think raiding is for people that are better than they are. I'll let them think that if they want, but if they bothered looking in to it they would realise its not like that.[/p][p]I have not said it IS like that either. If you actually look at what I have been typing, I have said people THINK that. I am more aware than you as to what it takes to raid in EQ2 (you can go on and on about raiding in EQ1 all you want, I dont care, this is not EQ1). I am aware that for a lot of classes I could train a monky to raid. I am aware that for 2 or 3 spots on my raid I could have people afk for 99% of the raid and I would not notice. But the fact that I know this does not mean everyone knows this.[/p][p]Do I think I am better because I raid? Not at all. I think I am better, therefore I raid. [/p]

[p]Seems to me the OP is seeing stuff in EoF heroic instances and comparing it to DoF/KoS raid fabled gear. Thats not comparing like-with-like. Try comparing the EoF heroic gear with the EoF raid gear.[/p][p]Stuff in newer expansions is always a tad better than the content before it. It's deliberate. It both encourages people (raiders and non-raiders) to buy and experience the newer content, and, it compensates somewhat for people who are already geared to the older raid-level quality (would be pretty boring to form a group with your KoS/DoF raid geared friends and then find EVERY drop in the EoF heroic content was worse than what you had -- would remove a lot of the incentive to play).[/p][p]Also it allows them to ramp up the difficulty a bit to challenge the raiders without shutting out the non-raiders too much.[/p][p] [/p][p]I don't see an issue here. Its very normal MMORPG progression in action. After you have played a lot of MMORPG's for many years you'll see this pattern repeated frequently.[/p]

[p] [/p][p]WOW, I followed your repeated advice (Im so dumb, I need more than a couple or three reminders) and I "actually looked at what you have been typing". Now I feel enlightened. Youre just uber. Nuff said.[/p][p]:-D[/p][p]Poetelia Roseknight[/p][p]Paladin of Qeynos[/p][p] [/p]

I think you fall into that category reserved for the crap you scrap off your shoe after a walk in the park. Better at the game? more mouthy and arrogant more like.

what are you talking about most of the endgame is "Raid or Quit". there is NOTHING else to do in this game besides "getting da UBAH gear".

First, don't assume you are better than me at anything fool You have never seen me play. It's that kind of statement though that makes folks think all raiders are testosterone pumped idiots, so WTG. I know plenty of awesome raiders who would shake their heads at a statement like that, because they are smart enough to know all it does is drive a bigger wedge between the player base, making soloers and groupers even more likely to want to marginalize raiding if they can convince SOE to do it. I have raided before and will do it again, but I don't live in fantasy land like yourself, so I was explaining to y'all the facts-- if SOE tries to please the raiders in the exact fashion the op is asking for, they will anger the majority of their player base. Therefore, it's not gonna happen. Period. If you look at posts I've written in the past, I have DEFENDED the raiders' right to the Fabled gear they get against some of the whingers who claim Fabled should be easier for them to get. But asking to make Fabled gear better than it is already is pissing in the wind my friend, however you go ahead if you want to.

The progression exists, you're just at the end of the progression. Once you've done all the raids, fabled everything, mastered everything, maxed out your level, your AA's, and your ego, there's clearly nothing left for you to do but shave off your neckbeard and go out into the world and try to act like a normal person for a while. I know the real world is disappointing because you can't get a Fabled job or a Legendary car, but don't worry, in a few months another expansion will come out and you can spend another two weeks doing every possible thing that dozens of programmers took months to develop and get into running condition.

[p]Ok, OP, you can read this as a flame if you want but I actually think that, within their stated goals, the developers have done raid dropped items decently (although there is some obvious slanting towards satisfying raiders at the expense of others) and actually encouraged a lot more [/p][p]By makeing HQ's and Signature Quest's have some raid components they have actually got more people to try raiding then would have otherwise bothered. MOA is a good example of this. Some of my former "dedicated" casual players who would never have even attempted to raid started with a successful largely pickup MOA 4 raid and then abandoned the guild later on when its alliance was not moving fast enough through KOS raid progression for their new "I want raid gear" mentality. The Claymore, prismatic 1, and prismatic two line are more examples of ways EQ2 entices more players to try raidings. [/p][p] Your biggest concern seems to be the EoF group drops being almost as good as the low lvl KoS raid drops. That (which I do not agree with 100 percent) maybe but that is a result of equipment/zone progression for group instances and equipment from KoS versions. [/p][p]Why is that? Because there was a lot of, well, I guess complaints mostly from raiders after KoS and DoF because they had to actually do non raid content to level up and start raiding a tier at the bottom. I remember all the one more lvl cap raise cause I wont be so uber compared to non raiders any more post well. [/p][p]Now, past emotional raider post aside, the results of no lvl cap but new content is the content must be harder and drop better stuff then the old in both solo, group, and raid content. Other wise there is no progression. [/p][p]As far as risk/work vs reward "stuff". On a raid the raid leader, MT, and healers are the ones who have to do significantly more then when in groups and even then, since most raids have backups, you can lose one of those people and still succeed where as a group would usually fail. So therefore, the risk can mostly only be equated to the time invested. [/p][p]Something from a 3 to 4 hour raid from a named should be better then something from a 2 to 3 hour instances and I can say that it is. Good job dev's. [/p][p]Getting a 3 set proc with a piece of legendary which might make it seem better in some respects then a piece of raid gear? Lets's do the math. (3-4) hours for raid item. (2 to 3) hours X 3 = (6 to 9) hours. 3 to 4 is less then 6 to 9 so I can see that, with proc, that piece might be considered better and DESERVED. Yes some instances take less the 2-3 hours for groups but lot of raids can be done under 3 hours (if a lot of afk's are not taken). The same thing about time differences for learning a raid or group zone also apply. [/p][p]I did some guild raids in EQ1 and had some fun. I do some raiding in EQ2 but due to 2 kids now that need attention, have less time because they are and should be the priority, not raiding. [/p][p]I do need an occasional AFK for 10-15 minutes an hour to take care of things for them. If everyone in a raid had to afk for 10 to 15 minutes at a random time during a raid then eventually it will get to the point where other people will have to wait for them and drag the raid out beyond their ability to hang around and finish. I do not enjoy having people waiting on me or waiting on other people. [/p][p]If I put in the same amount of hours (with the often afk breaks spread out in them) as a hardcore no life and I don't care about my family raider doing a solo or group quest line, I expect to get rewards that are associated with the efforts I put in it. The harder the content, the better no matter wether its solo, group, or raid. Granted, if I do a hard solo lvl 60 quest I would not expect it to be quite as good as a drop from a lvl 60 named mob which I would not expect to be as good as a drop from A level 60 named raid mob. The group and/or raid drops should not be so good that the solo item is trivialized though. [/p][p]That is from the same tier and expansion though. When you add in pregressive content like different expanions as I talked about earlier, then other variable are added. [/p]

Time travel would be great because some of you need to go back and not get picked last in kickball again.

no kidding, I should ask mr/mrs "i'm better at the game than you" how old he/she is. I can't see someone over 20 acting like that.