As a Coercer I find it very annoying when stuff is immune to mez, raid mobs in the new raid zones are supposed to have crowd control abilities allowed. So why when I try to mez any name or named connected add does it not work at all, stuns, mezzes, fears, stifles all seem to be IMMUNE. It's heroic, make them highly resistant or make them come out of trance early if you want to make an anti-stunlock mechanism. Before when the healer died my first instinct was to stun the encounter or mez it if possible, now I just watch myself crumple like a heap like the rest of the group. Please give me back the usefulness of my class other than being a buff/power bot.
Sorry but don't expect any relief. This is why I dramatically reduced my playing time on my Coercer. SoE has never liked CC in EQ2. Since launch CC has been a constant complaint for the Enchanters with huge swings in abilities. Roughly about four years ago there was the "Great Coercer Fix". What was the fix? Finally CC abilities? Unfortunately no. But Coercers got so bad that raiding guilds where screaming that they couldn't recruit a Coercer to save their soles. Many, like myself had shelved our Coercers because they had become totally useless except as a hate transfer and mana bot. For those of us who played Enchanters in EQ1 this was really annoying. And this was not exactly what we signed up for when we made our Coercers. There were zero usefull CC abilities by then. Many like me had switch classes ( I went to my Troub which was also very rare at that time). So what was the great fix? Monster increase in DPS. No CC, just a dramatic huge DPS boost. I mean not just a little, I mean the beating Wizzies and Assassins on the parse boost. Fairly quickly they started nerfing the Coercers again (they really didn't have a choice). For a while there though, every who had a Coercer was playing them for mind bending DPS even though we were still upset about the lack of CC. Oh, we were promised, CC in the next expansion. Oh yes, promise after promise but guess what? Next expansion and no CC. Funny, but SoE said the gave us some CC. What? When? They decided that giving us the new spell Possessed Essence was a major CC ability. Seriously, that's exactly what SoE told us, and they really did (still do?) think that PE was a new, great CC ability for us. Of course when it first came out you were limited by which mobs you could PE, but you still had that shiney new button to smash. Eventually the nerfs took their toll and again the Coercers where thrown back into the closets and we marched on again on different toons. Sorry but you have picked a toon that has forever been in limbo. It's the only class that is nothing like it's description SoE gives it on EQ2 Player. Quoted right off EQ2 Player under Game Info > Player Classes> Mages > Coercer; "The Coercer is capable of subduing enemies, sending them into a paralyzing state of fascination or causing them to flee in uncontrollable terror. Master of domination, Coercers can subjugate the mind of another, taking complete control and forcing an unwitting creature to do their bidding." Does that sound anything like the Coercer you are now playing?
At some point they'll get tired of the tug-of-war and we'll just have four classes - Fighter Mage Scout Healer - and a bunch of "talents" to customize them with.
CC was a concept that was very important in EQ1, and for a while also in EQ2. That seems to have fallen by the wayside, and Coercers have become more of just a mana battery than anything else. It is a bit discouraging to go into an instance and not even be able to mez the ^^ adds. Coercers are not noted for their high DPS, so if not for the mana regen they would be essentially useless. "The Coercer is capable of subduing (a few trivial) enemies, sending them into a paralyzing state of fascination or causing them to flee in uncontrollable terror (for a few seconds, and then bring adds back with them). Master of domination (in non-heroic zones), Coercers can subjugate the mind of another, taking complete control and forcing an unwitting creature (with trivial DPS) to do their bidding."
Don't sell yourself short that much, you give a great hate buff to the tank and really great de-hate to other raid members. Now what that has to do with the stated mission (crowd control) of a Coercer I have no idea.
There probably is a good mix in the middle to have effective, active crowd control, without the previous 'extreme' or the current draught. Fear and controllable charm as we knew them are out and likely never coming back. Target lock is a mix. Mostly out, but supposedly a rare few cases where it is effective. For target lock-able mobs, it would be nice if there was some form of 'detect weakness' for it, so it wasn't something that was always a guessing game as to which are always susceptible, which are sometimes, and which will never be. Interrupts are often ok. Root and Snare are ok but restricted (if reasonably out of the damage arc). Stun, stifle, are mez are ok but restricted. Mez is a bit out-moded with the high amount of AE's that are firing, especially the uncontrolled AE auto. If it worked more like verdict, where tier and levels mattered, and a short guaranteed outcome occurred based on those factors, it would be a lot better. As a concept, what about a non controllable, short duration AE charm, call it "Riot"? Targeted AE on a cluster, and moderate chance of 'charm' afflicting qualifying creatures not targeted by a fighter, where by the charmed mobs in the AE would for a very short duration attack uncharmed mobs in the cluster at random, of which there would be no direct control or influence over. If targeted mob leaves the cluster, charm is dispelled on all mobs in the cluster. There is some innate balance in that at will use will prevent anyone's AE damage from hitting the charmed mobs for whatever duration the charm lasts. Part crowd control, Part damage all with a 'charm' theme. When they look at doing a slightly deeper overhaul of out-moded skills, it may be worth it look at making player fear skills act as a 'confidence' reducer without the run away scared part, almost nearly like it works for mercs, scaled appropriately for the target type (NPC non epic, NPC epic, and PVP player). Stacking and precedence will be a concern, as not only is fear a coercer skill that multiple coercers may wish to apply in a raid, but so too is it for dirges, and likely others. Perhaps they can treat it as an accumulating debuff counter that on expire consumes a counter, allowing a modest debuff to stay on perpetually if you have enough fear casters keeping the counters applied as their skill refreshes.. As far as which stat to adjust, I would contend that one of those hidden values that makes a mob react to non-fighter damage as strongly as they do could be affected. Basically a slight raid wide threat reducer for anyone not at the top of the hate list, no matter who is on the top of the hate list, so it could make shuffles and wipes a bit harder.
I'd settle for Thought Snap working on epic mobs. I mean if they're concerned with it making it too easy for mem shuffles (dumb mechanic to begin with but that's another topic) then they can give epics a temporary immunity to it after it's cast on them, the way they do with stuns and stifles. So at least it won't be COMPLETELY useless in raids. Also, way too many heroic mobs are immune to it as well. In EQ1 a good mezzer required skill and dedication and was absolutely necessary for adds, but in EQ2 adds are just AE'd down. I suppose they could make encounters that require mezzing but then people would complain about that encounter requiring enchanters. Once in a blue moon I'll still use mezzing, but that's usually just when a tank dies in a heroic zone. It's often immediately broken by DPS but now and then it actually does some good.
Here's the problem with Crowd Control for SoE, it makes setting up encounters super hard for the Dev's when they have to figure in CC into the encounter equation. The easiest way around that problem? Don't have CC. It's pretty much that simple. Mezz's that last 15 secs on epic targets isn't a mezz, it's a short stun, with a long immunity on top of it, that is if it will work at all on the mobs you target. Snap Thought that doesn't work on mobs, mobs with complete immunity, and a host of other things all kill the concept of CC. Here are the spells that I don't even have on my hot bars when I play my Coercer: Mesmerize Pure Awe Snap Thought, I do have Coercive Shout still on my hot bar though. Reek of Terror Charm Mindbend There are others that I have on my hot bars but are pushed way off to the side do to their lack of function like Amnesia and Forced Hesitation. Sorry if you are upset about the lack of CC in the game, because I really don't think there ever will be a true CC ability in the game. My recommendation is that if CC is important to you, then find another game. If CC isn't so important to you but you find the lack of CC frustrating then you might want to consider another class to play. For SoE you are and forever will be a hate transfer, de-hate buffing, mana bot and almost nothing more.
Forgotten to be TW bots. After all with only 1 Mana feed and it being capped at 40% they really less regen. Please buff the numerical aspects of their mythicals, it's still using TSO/SF numbers. As per CC in the new expansion, well I haven't seen a fight where it was "needed" sadly.
TW now not reseting correctly either. Illusionists still regen power better than coercers and should keep up their group's power alright. With less power drain on Eriak and Commanders I think chanters will be fine.
Crowd Control abilities like Mezz wouldn't be useful in the standard fights we have in current raids anyways. Almost every fight with adds is just a DPS check, because if you don't kill the adds in an X amount of time, the named gets buffed and everyone dies. Or the adds start to AoE/Stun like crazy and its a wipe. I remember long ago, first killing Tarinax, it was only because of the enchanter being quick on the mezz on the heroic adds we were able to do the fight. The adds were heroic and mezzable, which was good because they hit like a truck and the fight was so long and so much going on it was best to keep them mezzed, and focus just on Tarinax. Thought Snap/Force Target crowd control abilities should be more usable. I've been talking about this for quite some time. The only mobs that don't seem to be immune to this ability, are mobs that don't need it. Mem-shuffle mobs seem like they are meant for this ability. When all the tanks get the unlucky shuffle to the bottom of the hate list, allowing 6 seconds of a force target for them to get it back isn't "game-breaking." Specially on a mem-shuffle mobs that get buffed from deaths. There's really nothing you can do if you get the unlucky tanks dropped to the bottom of the hate, and your raid boss starts wailing on the entire raid, slaughtering everyone with 1 shot, even if you can recuperate from that, now he's buffed and even more difficult... Crowd Control can be implemented correctly, and add fun and more active gameplay for the crowd controlling classes. Using your abilities at the perfect time isn't over-powered, its part of the strat, part of player skill. I like to imagine if other class defining abilities didn't work on most heroic/raid encounters now... Imagine if AE blockers didn't work on any AE's that come from epics? or if equilibrium didn't trigger if fighting epics. Sanctuary doesn't prevent anything if its an epic encounter, stuff of that nature... *sigh* But in reality...I feel we are just wasting our breath
Unfortunately, yes you are. It is sad to see my favorite class for years (I raided on my Coercer for six years) descend so far. As for Illusionist, sorry for specifics on Coercers but yes both the enchanter classes are in the same boat. And it's sinking fast.
snip.. Only rarely should specific skills be any concern when designing encounters. I cannot imagine there is a checklist of skills that are marked off while evaluating an encounter. Assassinate, check; Equilibrium, check; Bladedance, check; Timewarp, check... And so on... That notion seems a bit ridiculous. Perhaps it happens though... If the skills are frequently a concern, the skills themselves, and not the encounters, probably need some slight adjustment and probably not tossed out. Honestly, no one wants to bite the hand that feeds, but we are past that point in this regard. The hand is no longer feeding. The apple cart is upside down. Do you suppose that the skills most in question were probably capable and used beyond their intended purpose? Not at times, but frequently? A scalpel would have worked wonders, but the only thing available at the time was an axe. In retrospect though, the general mechanics players and encounters are subject to now have changed dramatically that some things even if left unchanged wouldn't fit in today's model as well as they once did. The concept of crowd control does not have to mean total domination from start to finish and all the way through. It can simply mean to make things that are normally unmanageable or extremely difficult to manage, manageable or more bearable. At some point and at some level, the intent was for both enchanters to be capable crowd control 'specialists', with a few other select classes having lesser forms of select abilities. One enchanter class is oriented in an offensive or magical manner, the other defensively or melee manner (yet both have some tools for covering the opposing aspects). I do not think this concept of crowd control is ready to abandon entirely. It may just need a slightly different approach from what we have been accustomed. Before I continue, I will add this disclaimer: I do not know either enchanter class well enough to give anything too specific. I do have a bit of an appreciation and understanding of some of the core concepts, extensive experience with an EQ1 enchanter years ago, and a relatively small bit of time with my own EQ2 coercer at higher levels. So bear that in mind, correct, and forgive me if something is not quite right... Traditionally, the EQ2 coercer's approach to the fight was to eliminate mobs from combat, enhance hate, influence threat, and provide the group with meaningful melee oriented buffs. Of course, they do other things too, like power and enhance healing, and the typical combat flow from where it all started to today is bit different, but I see those as the key things that distinguish a coercer from its counterpart, the illusionist. They still enhance hate, influence threat, and do all the other things pretty well most of the time. A few of those could use a little adjustment, but nothing that is not overwhelming or earth changing, as we know it. Eliminating mobs from combat, however, is something the community at large and developers felt was too critical to game play: terribly hard if you didnt have that capability, or terribly easy if you did. So after I am sure some fiddling around the edges, they closed the book and restricted it near powerless and eventually made skills that worked towards those possible outcomes irrelevant. To some extent that eventually happened in EQ1 at various points too IIRC, but often they later restored the capability in some fashion (I cannot speak to the current state). This is probably the biggest concern for the class/archetype, as an entire aspect of the class/archetype is currently dust binned and essentially all that is left is a weak mage. What could and should be done is to find a way to make the intent (turning a barely manageable encounter into a manageable encounter) and effect (charm, stun, stifle, root/snare, mez, fear) line up a little closer so that larger aspect of the class/archetype could be restored. Why was charm a problem in the first place? Duration, target type, scaling, buff scaling, something else? Only as comparison, not necessarily as unequivocal advocacy, in EQ1 there were eventually several different forms of charm. Some were more effective at times than others, but often a much higher risk to the enchanter. Some were safer but less effective all the time. Some were very situational, others a bit more general purpose. One of the other things that EQ1 did that helped make skills like these (and particularly debuffs) not so problematic was to introduce a 'visible' secondary mitigation factor. In essence, it worked sort of like Verdict, where 'tier' and level played a role in determining duration and impact/effectiveness. A 'slow' from EQ that reduced a mob's rate of attack by 60 percent was only partially effective against 'epic' mobs and netted a reduction in rate of attack of 30 percent (numbers made up, purely for concept illustration). Against 'heroics', it typically worked at full power, save a few exceptional exceptions. By marrying some of the mechanics behind Verdict with the mechanics of charm and mez, and possibly introducing a few more types of those spells that have variance in target type, duration, resist rate, and post charm consequence, we might see a return of more active crowd control potential using the 'traditional' skills that does not break content or hearts. If that is untenable, there ... is... another ... Sky... walk... er. The concept of crowd control is to reduce incoming damage to group members and put the fighter or tank in a better position to gather the hostiles. So do that more directly without resorting to any form of mob elimination. Reduce, and then convert incoming damage to threat that is passed immediately on to linked/buffed fighter. Is that seemingly too powerful if applied to the entire group? Fine, I can believe that, make it apply only to the casting coercer, but make the damage reduction significant, because coercers are pretty darn squishy without the fat runes/wards that EQ1 enchanters had access to if they are going to stick their necks out and intentionally or unintentionally pull agro, depending on presence of strategy and purpose. Still not dangerous enough? Fine, make it a consumable buff that only triggers when the coercer is at the top of the hate list, and give it a moderate refresh of around 40 or 45 seconds at max reuse. This will make it available for a lot of rounds of adds at a typical rate, but not available for every round of adds. What you want for numbers, really doesn't matter at this point, as that is a secondary concern. Numbers can be adjusted as needed. The first problem is finding a concept or course that is agreeable. If none of what I have suggested is even remotely on the radar, I can understand that too, feel free to provide a constructive way to recover that lost aspect yourself. TL;DR Crowd control maybe a dead horse today, but it probably doesn't have to be.. I know this guy, who knows this guy who supposedly knows necromancy.
Ok, I have to admit that the above is one of the longest post that made absolutely made no sense to me. I keep reading it but I don't get the point it's making. Can you repost it but in say at least half of the amount of verbiage? Maybe make your point a little more.. well.. pointed?
There was a very clear shift in design philosophy in EQ2 away from interesting and powerful abilities which allowed creative players to perform much better than non-creative ones. This hit enchanters and bards hardest because those two classes were the ones with the most room for creativity and skill in EQ1. Honestly, it hit bards harder than enchanters. Look at the dirge/troub classes in EQ2 and then the bard class in EQ1 and you see what a pale, pale imitation EQ2's classes are. They basically took away the heart of the bard class and replaced it with 5-10 meaningless DPS abilities instead each on 5-20 second cooldowns. Modern MMO design in general has moved away from CC for a long time now. And it has certainly moved away from giving players significant ability to manipulate the game system in the way many classes could in EQ1, but especially enchanters and bards.
Heroics are not meant to be immune to mez, epics I can understand to some extent, but even they are meant to have like a 1-2 second capable mez/stun. It defies the description of the spell, hurts the class, and the lack of CC in the game removes other avenues of strategy for mobs. I don't think I have used Charm, amnesia, Reek of Terror since KoS. I agree with you, and it is annoying. I like it, added a couple of amendments of my own.
