Correct me if im wrong, shouldnt HP (life) be good side and power evil side?

Mystics buff 246 Raw Power more than a Defiler. That's it.

If the general rule was 246 HP more for a Defiler, I don't think this conversation would even be started.

Remember, 500 HP is a PERFECT WORLD scenario, a world where every bit of our STA buff takes full effect. This is almost NEVER the case. There are numerous tanks hitting the STA cap all by themselves, or getting so close to it as to make any STA buff irrelevant.

A tank who caps his own STA stands to gain the full difference in raw HP from Rapacity and Portent.

So, the actual range of HP we are talking about here is 500 to 1400 . . . call me crazy, but I don't think there are many raid leaders who would turn down 500 to 1400 HP in favor of 246 power.

Maybe I'm crazy.

Just want to clarify this for you.. Bane is a cool spell in theory.. but it is far from reliable.. the ward it places on the tank is in the range of approx 300-500hp (Don't have the spell in front of me right now).. some fights it will proc 3-4 times.. other fights it will not proc at all.. that's the issue with %chance proc abilities, as I'm sure you are well aware. Unlike Bolster, and Torpor which are directly cast on the tank, and can be placed there when they are needed the most. I would not count bane as an ability that makes us very usefull in it's current state, and there are discussions on this all over the defiler, and the Templar boards (Templars have a lot of the same types of abilities). With some tweaks this could be reliable.. but I know there are quite a few defilers who haven't even bothered with putting this on their hotbars due to its extremely un-predictable nature.

If its broken, you have our full support in getting it fixed. But it does exist, and does need to be counted in any comparisons.

That's the problem.. it is not broken.. it does exactly what the spell description says it does.. 20% chance to proc a ward when the mob attacks.. this has always been the case, and I don't see this being changed any time soon..
Now if this ability was 100% chance to proc and the duration was something like 5-10 seconds, then, and only then would I or any other defiler consider this an important utility comparible to Torpor, or Bolster.. at the moment that is nowhere near the case..
Also do not forget that preventing melee damage by one of your passive buffs on every tick also greatly reduces the amount of damage a tank will recieve throughout the course of a fight.. spell damage that is warded by the Defiler version of this buff is almost not comparible due to the nature of how mobs cast their spells.. (Infrequently, and for very high damage)..
Mystics also get a poison ward which defilers do not have a comparable ability to (short term nox mit buff).
Really if you look at the OVERALL picture.. our classes are extremely similar, and as I and many others have stated either class is a viable choice for the MT position.

Runic Talisman is an 87 HP Ward, it's upgrade, let's say goes up to 100 HP. Probably too high given the way scaling has worked out in T7, but whatever, I'll deal with 100.

As you said, mobs hit infrequently, but for large amounts of damage.

So, let's say you've got this mob hitting your tank. It lands a blow every 6 seconds. As long as it isnt more than 6 seconds between blows, this will work. If it's more than 6 seconds between blows, this scenario is going to be a best possible case and reality will be even less advantageous.

So, the Ward regenerates every tick. 100 per, times 10 per minute = 1000 healed per minute or 17 HP/Sec.

So, in the world of mobs doing 1000+ DPS, how helpful is 17 HPS ?

Yea, not terribly.

However, I wasn't comparing the overall advantages and disadvantages. I was merely addressing the shortcomings of the Mystic class when the MT group is considered.

In general, Defilers don't want to talk about that. They try to point out how effective Mystics may or may not be elsewhere, they point out how Mystics have all these "other" things that make them great. That's not the point at all.

I want Mystics to be an equivalent choice.

If Defilers feel they need additional utility to make them desireable in situations where they are not in the MT group, great. You have a nice forum to discuss what you feel you need added. You might even be able to garner support from Mystics if you present it well enough.

Mystics are working to get their shortcomings addressed. Perhaps Defilers should too.

That seems like a good goal.



It seems, though, that this thread is almost exclusively talking about buffing, specifically hit points. Defilers get the advantage there, so let's put that aside for a moment.

I'm curious, since I don't know much about defilers, do defilers have anything to bring to the "MT group table" once the action starts? That is, are there any during-combat things they do that only have significant benefit if they're in the MT group?

Well, assuming you don't consider having the MT at consistently higher hitpoints (with a Defiler vs. Mystic) the full duration of a fight a "during-combat" benefit...

Defilers have a group castable only DPS debuff/melee slow that procs when a person gets hit. This of course is ideal on the MT, especially in multi mob encounters that Defilers cannot debuff all at once. Since it cannot be cast outside of the Defiler's group, and offtanks aren't really needed much, it makes a Defiler more "useful" in the MT group as opposed to outside of it. As far as I know this spell is probably argument for Defilers in the MT group.

Also, Defilers have a summoned regenerating ward pet (Spiritual Circle) that is arguably much more desirable than the Mystic's regen healing pet (Umbral Attendant). It lasts 3 times as long as attendant and wards for way more than attendant heals for. Both of these spells are group only.

It seems like a lot of people put all your "social importance" in grouping with the MT. As if you're only an important player if you are in the MT group. I don't see a single MT group clearing epicx4 raid zones, do you? No, it takes multiple groups. They're all important. So what if another class is better suited for the MT group. You're not a piece of trash because you don't play in the MT group.

The entire Tendrils line is irrelevant for the purposes of the MT group. If the spell was raid wide, it would not change the desireability of a Defiler over a Mystic for MT group situations.

This is not what makes a Defiler the clear cut choice for being in the MT group.

There is only one goal for the MT group, make your MT as strong as possible. You take whoever you can from your entire raid force, put them in one group with the goal of making your MT the strongest he can possibly be.

In the world of raiding, most of the vital statistics for a tank are going to be at the SOE determined hard caps. Unfortunately for Mystics, buffing vital statistics is our strong suit.

in reply to someone. a few things.

Last time i checked there were more than 6 classes in this game.

the main tank group has room for 6 people thats it.

its impossible to balance classes without making everyone a grey copy of each other.

diversity is something i like about this game. it has disadvantages such as this bickering but im sure we all still log in and enjoy the game dont we?

a similar thing to this argument is like how plate wearing warriors invariably end up being the main tank. other tanks grumble and complain but it doesnt change anything really.

on the topic of the post id like to correct you as you are wrong. good side pray to spirits for spell powers evil side shackle spirits and command them for their powers. the powers are themselves basically the same.

I dont wanna be a part of this debate because i think its gone way beyond reasoneble arguments on bouth sides. But i would very much like to know who you are in game "Banditman" and what guild you belong to, i can see that ixnay is a defiler for a top raid guild and i can see that mystique is a mystic for a top raid guild, but have no idear who you are?

Why does it matter so much? Is someone incapable of dealing with issues, concerns, or just unable to understand how EQ2 to works because they don't raid the most UBER raids in the game?

I have come to respect BM's views, because he has been willing to spend the time and effort to know the Shaman archetype as well as others, and, while I don't always agree -- it can't be denied he was one the first ones to extensively deal with the Ward issues.

One's player name and the guild one belongs to is irrelevant to this discussion really. There are plenty of intelligent and rational posters in this thread that have not identified where they stand in the "uber" scheme of things, as well as several posters from affluent guilds whose posts are quite void of any useful information or comments. The only reason I disclose my background is to avoid unecessary questions like these, but it does not and should not affect the validity of my posts and shared information.

My in game persona has little or nothing to do with my knowledge of the game. If your only knowledge of the game comes from your own personal experiences you are hopelessly close minded.

Take a look at some of the people here who I think have presented intelligent and valid points: Mystique, dump, Merrygrin, Eepop.

They are WILDLY different in their in game avatars, but they are all equally important here. I'm somewhere in the middle of them, not as elite as Mystique, not as casual as Merrygrin. That doesn't make me right or wrong, nor does it make them right or wrong.

I've probably disagreed with every single one of them at one point, but not because of what they have or haven't done in game. I've probably agreed with every single one of them at some point, but again, not because of their in game accomplishments.

A fact is a fact. Data is what it is. Everquest is, at it's very core, a numbers game.

Some people are satisfied never even pondering the numbers behind the game. They enjoy the game at it's face value and for them, I'm very happy. I'm glad they can do that.

For the other folks, like these people here, those numbers are important. I have somewhat of a natural ability in that regard, and I use it.

Just because I may or may not gather the data myself will in no way invalidate the data. I've used data from just about everyone on this forum at one point or another.

Who I am in game, is not who I am here. You can either accept that or not, I don't care.

I guess its not surpricing that noone ever got anywhere in this thread with the extreamly defensive stance that apparently is here. A simple neutral question breeds very defensive replies from 3 different people which doesnt contain a answer. Up to you guys i guess if you want to have a productive debate or just throw mud at eachother.
And there is a reason as to why every civilized debate/discussion is started with participants introducing themselves. You proberly want to find out why that is at some point in time.

I'm sorry if this sounds defensive, but it isn't. I'm simply showing you what your question reflects. As for some of the other responses, I had good amount of respect for Ixnay until he showed his hypocritical responses.

Message Edited by thedump on 03-28-200609:57 AM

Wow.....ok.
This thread has pretty much run its course at this point, and most of us know it. However there are a couple latecomer posters that still ask about or discuss pertinent information which, if you'll scroll up, I tried to answer as best I could. You might also take this opportunity to go back and read the rest of this thread, like the first page, where you will see an interesting and level-headed discussion start before a member of the Defiler community comes over and starts namecalling.
Those of us in the Mystic community are not the ones coming here to both insult the tone of this thread and yet post irrelevant questions in an attempt to call somebody out and, one can only assume, attempt to discredit them. In case you're wondering....that was you NimSul.
I think you need to get your facts straight on just who is responsible for the bulk of the mud throwing around here, hun.
Message Edited by Mystique on 03-28-200610:43 AM

Ok but correct me if I'm wrong - but didnt ya'll CHOOSE to be a Mystic instead of a Defiler?
I personally do my homework before chosing a class.