Warriors have the exact same mitigation capabilties as Crusaders in terms of armor. Guardians do get a mitigation buff, but it is not really very significant - it wouldn't suprise me if Paladins got better mititgation buffs. Equipment-wise, the only advantage Warriors have is that they get tower shields, which is avoidance.
Zerkers can pull aggro off guardians as well. they do it all the time. Not sure about a paladin pulling hate off a guardian, but, zerkers can do it in a heartbeat if they try. Also note, we must use a very low level AE taunt on raid mobs. Guards and Paladins use buffs to hold aggro. So, this proves: Berserkers have good agro skills, the fact of the matter is you have more and better taunts than us. We do indeed use heals / buff to help maintain agro as well. SBS is greater then any tower shield that can be feasably obtained. Anyone at 40+ can get the SBS. If you know of a better Tower shield, please let us know. Which you can also use - as I said 9/10 tower shields > kite shields I never said ALL tower shields are better. Most guardians use sword and board on anything over blue mobs. Not sure what the above paragraph is supposed to prove. Many also use dual wieling for increased hate, I've met a few, even for the yellow/orange con mobs. Even when you add in your heals? Heals don't help when you can't cast them. NO, this is wrong. We have the exact same mitigation You have self mitigation buffs... we do not. the difference is small, but you still have higher mitigation. Join the club. they interrupt everything we got as well. Do half of your abilities have a chance to fizzle and be resisted as well? Looked like that paladin tanking x4 epics was somehow healing himself fairly well. The same mob that a guardian decided to strip off his armour to see what happened kind of mob? Sounds like a nice ability. Wish guardians had something similer. Takes up two concentration slots which means you loose two of your buffs. Yep, the changes could very well hurt Guards badly too. In fact, not looking good for any of the tank classes. Not sure how your trying to say the changes somehow hurt you ore then us. Yes, they will hurt us more, we rely heaviliy on spell casting in agro manament, tanking (healing) and damage as a whole. More so than the other two tank classes. Yep, fact is guardians have to have avoidence too to tank effectively. /shrug All tanks can;t work with 0% avoidance, I was illustrating that Crusaders already have te lowest avoidance of all the tank classes Being hit more often (for less damage) will hurt us more than it will hurt you (see above) When defense is capped, Warriors and crusaders will be able to avoid jsut as much as guardians. Not sure where your getting this from? Reduced avoidance hurt cursaders more than it hurts warriors Again, warrior=crusader in mitigation. We wear the same armor. Not sure where you percieve this invisible mitigation bonus you think guardians have. 30.6 - Dig In : Decreases offense and slows movement but increases defense and mitigation Difference may be small... but it is there I think many of your facts are just plain wrong. You seem to perhaps have the grass is greener syndrome. The fact is I love being my Paladin, just when half of your abilities are spellls any decrease in avoidance affects us more than it affects you -as I said previously in the effort to balance Brawlers and Warriors, Crusaders are getting crushed in the middle.
Anyone else see the irony...the one archetype that is the most balanced and fun out of them all is the one that is being drastically nerfed? Dont give me any BS about raids, etc...the truth is and everyone knows it that all 6 Fighters can tank 99.9% of the game and have fun doing it. By comparision we have Shamans not coming close to the healing power of Clerics or even Druids. We have Enchanters still trying to figure out what the hell their purpose is while they get 2 shotted by solo mobs. We have Scouts trying to figure out..."am I DPS or am a speed buff?"
If your goal is that you want SOE to give ya the tower shield or the ability to duel wield, I dont think most guardians will give a crap. Go for it. They would be considered by most a very weak advantage, as most guards use Kite shields and rarely duel wield. The only opportunity I would ask for is the ability to use my abilities, with them we are balanced... without them we are gimped. I just hope tha with the coming changed Crusader will actually be able to cast spells and tank at the same time (to the same degree as it is now)... its not much to ask the use of our own abilities.
The real irony is that you have the gaul to post this when the SK's are just as badly broken as those you mention -AND- if take the time to read most the posts made by many of the same on this thread you would see that we have been very vocal about the same issues you listed.
Yes, right now, the fighters looked pretty balanced. I think your asking in the wrong place. I have Sks, paladins, zerkers, casters, healers, scouts etc. on my friends list and in guild. All of them are very unhappy with these upcoming changes. Rather then waste our time speculating on which crappy tank class will be the crappiest, we should probably focus our attention elsewhere. On the bright side,since the zones have been revamped (made much easier), leveling is easier, etc. All this at the same time as the purposed combat changes. (coincidense?). Lets just say that the game is becoming very "alternate friendly". Maybe we should focus on a "power leveling a rotunga bruiser to 50 in record time" guide. :smileyhappy: Message Edited by uglak on 04-18-2005 08:46 AM
The only reason Guardians have like 3% more mitigation from our sellf buff is because that is our class abilities. You have heals, wards, etc. We have a small mitigation buff. Very Very Very small in the scheme of things. Guardians have no secondary role then to tank.
Oh god here we go again. I have parsed every group situation ive been in thus far and I have NEVER NEVER done more DPS than mages or scouts....Dont come here and tell me the role of my class is anything other than to TANK. Go flop around on the ground somewhere and *$%#&!.
Listen: I don't give a crap if your DPS is lower, its supposed to be. Every class gets utility that other classes don't, and specifically fighters have utilities and abilities that allow them to be offtank. IF anything is broken its that: A) Your utilities don't work. B) There aren't enough encounters that require MT/MA. But don't sit there and talk about how you can only tank, boo hoo. Sorry, whatever. There are five other classes that need to be aligned to tank also, and no one class should be MT or worthless, that's stupid. I can't even believe guardians would want that anyway, it makes it that much harder for your class to compete.
Ok whatever...I dont want to be more DPS than others...I accept the fact that im not a DPS class...DPS was the last thing I cared about when i chose Guardian. Offtank is NOT a secondary role...its just a variotion of the Tank role... So even when we are nerfed like you want us...we are still just tanks. Why I find myself arguing with someone who's got their head so far up their *$%#&! they can barely breath is beyond me.
Hi! If I have 2 Guardians on a Raid. Guess what the other guardian is going to be doing? Yes, Offtanking. Guardians are tanks and tanks alone. But since we lack any other secondary role. This patch completely obliterates the class virtually. And remember, you yourself agreed with me when I pointed that we lack a secondary role to you before. If you hadn't noticed all tank classes could already tank 99.9% of the encounters in the game. You should talk to more raiders often. And yes I know you hang out with a raiding guild some. But obviously their view on the situation skews your view for the 350k other people playing this game. So I'm going to spell out to you why this patch is obliterating guardians. With the current adjustments in place, Guardians, Berserkers, Paladins, and Shadow Knights at equal levels all hit the exact same Mitigation and Avoidance CAP regardless of how good their armor is. It's still the exact same cap. Making them virtually identical damage absorbing machines except the fact that Guardians have some more hp at equal levels. And if thats supposed to balance the guardian class when raid mobs are hitting for 4000+ damage. Then I guess I don't know what I'm talking about. They should just Merge the 4 Plate tanks into 1 *$%#&! class and get it over with. Plus they need to merge Monks and Bruiser into 1 avoidance class. Cause their caps are identical as well. Message Edited by Eelyen on 04-18-2005 02:10 PM
I think this is perhaps the one thing that has annoyed me the most thus far in this game.. With the exception of a few stats here and there the 4 plate tanks are virtually identical from a tanking perspective...We look the same, mitigate the same, etc. I think in the back of my mind I realize the proposed changes will just blur that line even more and in fact make us absolutely identical. All along I had hoped they would make the various classes within an archetype equal yet different...I now I see it will just end up equal/clones, etc. Not much fun in knowing you are no different and off nothing unique compared to the 5 other branches of your archetype. And considering I offer nothing of extra value...im left feeling obsolete. I know having played other SOE games i realize thinking that they would fix rather than break was somewhat foolish of me.
Just for the record Bols, Holding aggro is a simple task if you know what you are doing. Im using level 20 on down taunts as a bruiser at level 41 and holding aggro off of level 48+ wiz/warlocks. So until they take the aggro building off of fighter buffs, and such. Aggro holding really shouldnt be a factor. At level 41, im using shout and slurred insult to hold aggro. It sucks - but it works. /shrug So in most cases holding aggro isnt as much of a commodity as is being able to take the hits once you get the aggro under control...
So do I. Really? Well monks are told to "do DPS" and when I state we aren't a DPS class I get told that doing so is "being the offtank". Looks like a case of wanting to be the best tank at all costs. That's not very nice.
Then the answer is simple: You make SoE fix your abilities and give you a secondary role, like the rest of the fighter tree has. The answer is not to nerf the tanking ability of five other subclasses because you feel that your class can "only MT." This is the single stupidest arguement from guardians, and its why I post so much. Guardian: I'm only a tank. Non-Guardian: Why is that? Guardian: My DPS is too low and my abilities don't work. Non-Guardian: So get them fixed and/or increased. Guardian: No, I picked a guardian to tank, I don't need that other stuff, its "useless". Other Tank: Well I picked my class to tank to, and I get told by you all the time that I should be doing other things, because of my utility and damage. Guardian: Well yes, of course. That's because by not getting myself fixed and ensuring I tank better than you, everyone will see that I can "only" tank, and therefore I get to be the only viable MT (especially for raids in the game). Sorry, but as I've said I'm not buying it. If you can't contribute as an "offtank" or some sort of utility (and you do contribute damage, it just isn't as good ~ which coincidentally should be made up for with utility ) then get your class fixed. Quit trying to support a broken system just so you can be the best. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 04-18-2005 04:37 PM
Sagemarrow wrote: Just for the record Bols, Holding aggro is a simple task if you know what you are doing. Im using level 20 on down taunts as a bruiser at level 41 and holding aggro off of level 48+ wiz/warlocks. So until they take the aggro building off of fighter buffs, and such. Aggro holding really shouldnt be a factor. At level 41, im using shout and slurred insult to hold aggro. It sucks - but it works. /shrug So in most cases holding aggro isnt as much of a commodity as is being able to take the hits once you get the aggro under control... ____________________________________________________________________________________________________ The problem for the Shadow Knight community though is for us to have a chance to maintain aggro, we have to burn up a lot of power with recyling taunts, shield bashing, buffing and debuffing, specially if with a nuke happy wiz/warlock or some of the scout classes. On single mobs we usally can keep aggro ... though if we lose it we have a heck of time getting it back. Multiple mobs, its more problimatic. But after the fight we usally have to med up to get power back up, and group has to wait for us to be ready again. In comparison with Guardians and Zerkers, they from my experiance when grouping with them maintain aggro easier and use a lot less power, so group goes back to killing faster. Admit I usally tank if with a monk/bruiser due to the fact they can produce more dps then me if not tanking, so can't compare power consumption to maintain aggro. But they use less power then we do in dps role and produce more damage. V/R Blackoath 31st Troll Shadow Knight Message Edited by Margen on 04-18-2005 04:39 PM Message Edited by Margen on 04-18-2005 04:42 PM
Hear hear! I've been a SOE customer since 03/99 (well, started with Verant) and I know EXACTLY how you feel. I almost packed my bags twice already due to general gameplay nerfs (in my personal opinion). My experience with EQ2 has been far far worse than it ever was playing EQ - hardly any information is given, Server Status pages are static and hardly ever updated (LOL), ALOT of downtime (really shouldn't be needed to flip servers daily - I don't believe I registered for beta testing when I decided to give SOE 18$ a month?). I too read the material before EQ2 came out, decision was easy - I wanted to be THE Tank (played offtanking class in EQ) in EQ2, and from what I could gather, Guardian was "the" tank class. Ofcourse there was alot of exciting "utility tanks" aswell, but I reckoned I would have a go at the Main Tank (raid) role. Reading all of this makes me wish I stuck with a fun utility tank class since it seems they now get the advantages the Guardian once had (soon). I actually thought of the Berserker class - but I went for the one of the two Warrior classes that seemed like the most probable MT. Berserker without the DPS? I would hate that. If everyone is so focused on making everyone equal, then please return to the Fighter, Thief, Cleric and Wizard system - was ALOT easier to play then :smileytongue: "Why is he still playing??" some will think - well, been in love with Norrath since 99 - hard to let it slide. All my RL friends are already playing "the other game" which I can't stand (muppetshow on acid IMHO), I still have alot of guildies from EQ playing so still some reason to stick around. Take away my capabilities as a Guardian and I quit - I am level 48 now and I have put far too much work into this already to start over - so think about the consequences of your actions. This game started out soooo promising and it has been just about all downhill from there... With D&D beta unleashed (yes - started playing pen & pencil games 18 years ago - D&D was my first) you risk loosing even more of your remaining customers (considering the severe loss to "the other game") - so please - more *correct* info, think more about the consequences of what you unleash BEFORE you do so, and please please stop making everyone the same - takes the fun out of everything (didnt work for communism either)...
