Combat changes are on test - sorcerers now even on damage

Raid much?

As it is becoming apparent, this update will significantly change the roles of many classes. It is starting to sound like someone in the design department made some sweeping categorizations. "Let's see, how about we make Warlocks AoE nukers, and Wizards DD nukers, and Necros DoT kings, ..." (just guesses for non-warlock classes at this point). The problem is that the current customer base chose their class based upon the old archetypes, no matter how flawed they may have been. To change the basics of a class is guaranteed to clash with the chosen preferences of your current player base.

Will these changes attract more new customers than the ones they lose? Can the game survive a further downturn in the short term, even if this "makes the game more fun to play" for some hypothetical other group of players?

I have good hope that these changes will be fine and we can continue to have an enjoyable game. The verdict is still out. Let's see what happens.

so i guess the obvious question is...when do we get our evac? :smileysurprised:

Once again these changes seem to be based on fundamentally flawed design decisions. One of the goals of the combat revamp was to make classes more distinct. It looks like the way SOE are doing that is by forcing classes into specific roles - which is all well and good, however when the role you're being forced into is situational at best (which AOE is) you gotta ask yourself how effective your going to be for the other 90% of the game where it's not appropriate to use your speciality. All the AOE damage in the world doesn't make up for lowered single target damage and reduced ability to keep mobs away from you.

Exactly and doing all of the AOE damage in the world makes the mobs want to be near you. Unless tanks AOE taunt has been drastically increased there is absolutely nothing they are going to be able to do to compete with the absolutely massive AOE damage that the posts seem to indicate we will be able to dish out. When you combine that with a big reduction in our capability to take a hit, the risk of pulling agro by using any of those nifty spells isn't worth the risk as if you get the attention of even one ^^ mob in an encounter you'll be dead before the healer can react.

Like others have said we'll have to see how it works out. But the capability of doing Massive AOE damage in todays game is useless as there is no chance to survive even attempting to dish it out. Maybe agro changed or there are other changes to other classes that make it practicle and useful, and if thats the case then I will adapt my tactics and be happy. I plan on awaiting judgement until I can see the changes in context. I certainly won't be leveling any characters up on test to find out sooner.

You know what I'd like to see... A tag on said AOE spells that reads "Can damage up to X targets." X being a number of choice for the spell. For instance 5. Allow you to choose up to 5 targets from on the field (multiple clicking holding shift). Meaning you could just choose one if it suited your needs in a better fashion.
That would be an awesome fix for this AOE idiocy.

Let go spell by spell...
ND before nerf 1400-2100 (average 1750/18s with 2s to cast - aka ~87.5DPS) after nerf 984-1476 (average 1230/12s 3s to cast - aka 82DPS) its DID been nerfed but not by much but but but ... we lost BSS ENTIELY and what is BSS nowdays? well its 800-1100 total damage with 9s recast 2s cast and THAT jentlemens BIG loss I'd say THE loss with new rewamp we losing 52 points life tap and 86DPS (about 20-25%)
Noxious bolt always been our trinary nuke ~650-850 6.5s recast 2s cast aka it was solid 88DPS lets see what we got in exchage for that Soul Flay with ~500 nuke (ad3) 2s cast 4s recast which is ....83DPS so we got slight NERF here
Dark Pyre its retain its DD part but got DoT part attached to it nearly doubling damage right? - WRONG - it past this spells been at M1 around 333-554 damage on 2s cast 4s recast (total 6s duration) which was 74DPS now its will do nearly double damage but hahah take TWICE longer to do damage -that mean .... ~800-1000 damage over 10s ~90DPS very minor upgrade very minor
Devastation HAVENT BEEN CHANGED AT ALL and let me explain why it was 555-684 on impact and same damage for 4 more tics aka 5 tics on average 620 which is ~3K per mob within encounter every 45s now it will do 781-955 on impact and 3 more tics on same damage which is ~3.4K per mo within encounter
IceFlame havent been changed at all at Adept 3 it do 850 damage now will do 848 damage after rewamp I DONT see any changes
Nil Absolution - well ... it MASSIVE upgrade 1575-1975 (at master lvl if will should go well over 2K) and recast down to 12s BUT let look closer shall we (it was ~1.1K damage per mob within encounter 3s cast 20s recast aka DPS per mob 47.8DPS but this spell been on sepate timer with Null Abs and Neg Abs and combined DPS of all 3 spells been .... EXACTLY same like now total DPS of Nil Abs) So correct me if I am wrong we LOSING Null Absolution and Negative Absolution but new Nil Absolution will do exactly same damage like all three old spell combined .... So ppl dont be silly there is NO upgrade here
Torment of Shadow - 1s cast time nice - good for pulling, damage nerf sucks thou .... it use to do 1.5k damage at M1 but it were still crappy DPS 1.5K/24s+4s cast? bleh 53DPS
Dark Nebula do 720-855 3s cast 9s recast ... it good
I dont see any information about our long duration stuns but Deter which obvious became a little .... WORST because duration been shrinked from 8s to 4s. Nerfing AE root sucks but all above it nothing compare to THE NERF
So what is THE NERF I am talking about? - well Grisly conract who was MAJOR contributor of Warlock DPS 500 Health for 189 power at Adept 3? What the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is that?
So let me summorize all we got
We got MAJOR neft on DPS on a single target we lost Nox Bolt and BSS (mana cheap to cast and high DPS spells) and got "suposely" to compencate us Nil Abs and Dark Nebula - which is mana HOGS. In conjuction with enchanters mana regenerating buffs nerf I'd say we pretty much been castrated
We did NOT got any AE upgrade dont be fooled by numbers - I have shown you above that we lost Null and Negative Abs and Nil Abs barely cover that loss. We did gain Dark Nebula thou yes

Are your calculations based on new or old recast timers and damage or a mixture of the two with a bit of conjecture thrown in? Can we get a chart of new and old recast timers from someone who went and look them up on the test server merchants?

Null Absolution at Master 1 did ~300 and ~50 per tick for a total of ~450 per mob. Negative Absolution did ~200 at Adept 3. Abysmal Fury and Dark Nebula will now do ~1000 total each. You have these two spells on top of Nil Absolution, which you stated now does the same damage as the three old Absolutions put together. Clearly we're worse off in the AE department.

Your dps calculations are based on casting the spell whenever it is available? Who in their right mind ever did that with Dark Pyre? You fit it into your line up the same as any other nuke. I'm sure you will be spending 10 seconds doing something else giving the spell time to take it's full effect. The upgrade looks like a good one.

You should tag "if you raid" to pretty much any comment regarding Grisly Contract. I get more use out of that spell reducing crafting downtime than I do in normal grouping situations.

Has anyone crying here actually tried fighting with the new spell system yet? Or are you crying foul because it doesn't fit into your idea of the game as it stands now?

Upon further thought, I'll take less damage and the role of being Mr. AOE'er in return for not having to listen to all the Wizzys whine...(Sal excluded). I came to this realization when i saw how much they messed up my poor illusionist alt's class...and it wasn't good to begin with

To quote Erowid from another post:
Devastation (adept 3) current:
Power = 258
Casting time = 3.0 seconds
Duration = 6.0 seconds
Effective radius = 10.0 meters
Max targets = 5

Initial Damage = 555 - 678
DOT = 555 - 678 (4 ticks)

Total possible dmg on 1 mob: 678 x 5 = 3,390



Devastation (adept 3) beta:
Power = 343
Casting time = 4.0 seconds
Duration = 3.0 seconds
Effective radius = 10.0 meters
Max targets = 5

Initial Damage = 682 - 833
DOT = 682 - 833 (3 ticks)

Total possible dmg on 1 mob: 833 x 4 = 3,332


Power cost = 35% INCREASE
Casting time = 33% INCREASE

Total Damage = 1.5% DECREASE


Thus, in my estimation Devastation has been nerfed considerably..!!

Omigosh! Sally getting some love! Danka Geoff /hug.

one thing i must say....you will NEVER get the full damage on the devastation or any AE because mobs that arent debuffed it does less damage..so in turn its about the same...with the fact that our debuffs are now contagious means the entire encounter could be debuffed and will do more damage that way.


we were suppose to be an AE class and ended up a Single target nuke class......i for one am extremely happy with this change as we were way overpowered to begin with. IMHO we are gonna be better and at worse the same as we are now.

Too bad everything I read 5 months ago when I made my warlock described us as the hardest hitting DD mage class out there .. not some aoe / ra garbage class that is utterly useless in raids.

Where does it ever say we're 'supposed' to be an AE class? I never saw it.. if I did I would've made a Wizard in the first place. I researched and learned what Warlocks currently are so I made one.

I am on the Beta server level 51 Warlock, Our AE DPS has gone up. Our Solo DPS has gone down. Spells Like Noxious Bolt are now replaced by Soul Fay, Flashfreeze by Deter with a significant upgrade, and Abysmal Fury has been significantly upgraded. The Biggest change is learnnig how to solo again, soloing heroic mobs is next to imposible now. Another large change is our mana consumption has gone up but for teh most part<execpt the totaly fubared nerf of our roots> I like the changes, it makes us totaly different then Wizzards.

PS Deter is 4 sec stun 2 sec cast time, 30 sec recast 700ish-1200ish damage depending on int
PPS Soul Fay is 550-750ish 4 sec recast 2 sec cast.
PPPS Torrent Of shadows does over 700 damage over 18 secs not bad for a 1 sec cast spell
And your infor on Dark Pyre is wrong,
I will do soem DPs parcing and see teh actual DPS difference with spells over solo mobs in EF and post the info.
Message Edited by Mastire on 08-05-2005 02:54 PM

Trouble is, it makes us different in a bad way. No warlock goes all out with his AEs on group encounters, because that will usually mean their death. Everyone still just does single target damage.

You know, if only someone or something said "warlocks are supposed to be the best at AOE damage, wizards are the best at DD" when I was level 19. I'd have made a wizard. Now, my warlock is in his 40s and life is about to suck, I'm going to have to level a wizard from scratch to do what I originally set out to do.

It's [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thinking on SOE's part. Imagine being given the keys to a Porsche. You drive the thing around for a year, you love the speed, and at the end of the year one morning you find a Toyota in your driveway. There's a note tacked onto the windshield, it reads "this is what you were originally supposed to drive. It still gets you from point A to point B. And look, it's better in some ways - just check the gas mileage!"

If you can't imagine how it feels, play a warlock now and through the nerf.

My only hope is that once I level the wizard into the 40s again, SOE doesn't turn around and nerf THAT class in turn. If they do, I'm going to quit and find myself an online game that doesn't turn the world on its head every 6 months because a few people over in the wizard forum whined.

Interesting question about the AOEs. In short, you got to do your homework on your raid. Luckily I don't have to, Lt. Blitz takes care of that. In some raids (about 1/3rd) or so, we warlocks can AOE with almost reckless abandon. In other raids (another 1/3rd) a good AOE means your death and little chance of a rez. The last 1/3rd is knowing whether the MA has aenogh aggro to hold against your AOE. Experience factors in here.

IMHO, I am very pleased with the changes. I was never much of a soloer anyway. I much prefer a group thing. And in the midst of the Company (Shadow Company) I always have a good group thing going.

you should also mention that he learned that all dmg numbers shown on spell info ingmae are based on your current int... so all numbers posted are useless without the int caster had that moment. with raid buffed int near 400 devastation ticks for 1.5k and far above...

I think these changes are very good, they have given the archetypes a more defined role where as before it was just warlock = pure damage and wizard = damage/utlity.

I can understand people getting annoyed though, you make a warlock expecting to be DD nukers not AoE nukers, but all in all i believe it is good for the game

I don't know, the more I learn about the changes, the more I'm unsure of how to feel about it.
I like:
-No longer using grey spells.
-All subclasses finally have more defined roles.
-Supposedly wizards and warlocks are more dps balanced.

I do not like:
-All our utility has been completely removed (what's that? Wizzies still have evac?! For shame...)
-I didn't sign up to be the AoE master, but I should have known when I saw that our level 50spell was AoE whereas wizard's was single target that someday that may be the case. I can live with it, though unless they boosted tank AoE aggro skills it'll be more like making a class that can only using crushing and have 95% of the mobs in the game immune to it.
-I'm really unimpressed with the power nerfs. In order for us to maximize dps on single targets, we'll have to use our AoE spells...which will consume massive amount of power in lieu of our crappier single target nukes which have also been nerfed since they now cost more power. Add all this to our health to power spells being nerfed, our power regen buffs taken away and a cap being placed on power regen in general -- this seems to be very, very bad.
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This is just the start of the revamp, we don't know if these are going live and we still are clueless on what additional spells they will be adding to our arsenal to fill in the gaps. Maybe our single target dmg has not been nerfed; maybe they'll add another line of spells to help with power; maybe we'll get a special utility like wizzies have evac...maybe a group invis?!