trigger rate has been affected. poisons proc more and get used up faster now. funny that someone mentioned 'normalize per trigger' becuase that's exactly what i did after a deathtoll run on Monday I think it was. The numbers came out almost dead equal with caustic winning by about 4 points of dmg per proc. i had 4 points in hemo at the time. i think it's also that most fights in deathtoll are very short. we dropped tarinax in 2 minutes which is the fastest we've ever done it i think. i think we're doing emerald halls trash clearing sometime this weekend so i'll play around more then.
some how i doubt SOE would make an AA ability that simply brought the effectiveness of a poison up to EQUAL to something else. That is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] notion to consider. I don't have hard numbers to prove anything more (or disprove for that matter) but common sense leads me to believe that if you spend the AA's on the hemo, you will do better dmg then you will with caustic. Making an aa simply "to give players a better choice" is silly. This isn't Coke vs Pepsi. It's about spending points on aa's to better augment your class. Spending points to make one poison even to another that requires no points spent is a waste of time and redundant in nature. Now, i fully expect to start seeing "Oh you know soe, they never do anything that makes sense.. blah blah blah..." /roll eyes. Get over that craptastic attitude and simply put up hard numbers by someone with the points put into hemo using hemo and compare their dps to when they are using caustic.
I went down and got frontload yesterday to check it out so that means 5 points into Hemotoxin. I am doing FTH tonight and EH tomorrow so I will get some total poison damage done by me (using hemotoxins) and our other Assassin (Caustic) Message Edited by Computer MAn on 12-08-2006 09:56 AM
I have been playing with hemo for about a week now with 5 points. I guess it was small sample size before, because it seems like I am only breaking about even with caustic assassin w/ same weapons. On shorts fights -- which is most fights -- it sucks. Even on AoA-Gorenaire last night with the 3 million HP trash mobs it was worse. I don't know what to say, other than it looks like bleeding is the line to crawl. I'm going to respec bleeding -> final ability, then crawl physicality down for getaway and pickup exacting 5 points. Maybe someone will buy my 129 remaining GM hemo..
Part of the problem is the hemo AA is a "poisons" line spell and doesn't even contribute to the physicality 20 point requirement for Getaway. If it weren't needed for the Exacting AA I wouldn't even be looking at it at this point. This is really stupid considering Rangers get a really nice bump to caustic. Can we just get the same one??? I'm wondering if the problems with hemo are just due to short fights or overwrites, or a combination.
i don't know what to say other than you're wrong in short. not everything in this game is logical. weapons with worse dmg ratings are better than others based on how critical hit %age and min / max ratios. how logical is it that caustic poison in general, all aa, aside is always beter than hemotoxin. why have an inferior poison in the game? it's not logical, many things aren't.
I think over time Hemotoxin (+Enhance: Hemotoxin (5)) can be as good as Caustic - if it crits, if it procs immediately and if it's always ticking on the mob. There are some scenarios where I suppose Hemotoxin might be better, i.e. if you open with Cloaked Assault on a group of 3 and you get a critical proc on each mob. However there are scenarios where Caustic is a lot better. Looking at a short fight, for example those drakes that are in Labs. I'm in combat for 16 seconds there and I get 7 procs from caustic with 4 crits, total damage 7310 (would have been more had I landed Enmesh sooner). With Hemotoxin, assuming it's a crit, assuming it procs straight away and assuming it's ticking for about 530 every 3.5 seconds, it would have done only done 2650 in that time even if it had procced 7 times as my Caustic did. The maximum you can get in a minute from Hemotoxin in perfect situation with that tick rate is about 9000 damage. But you are assuming that as one charge finishes you get another proc - which you would have to be incredibly lucky to achieve. You're also assuming you get a crit. You could easily blow your average of 5 procs per minute in 15 seconds: which in the best possible scenario will only give you two charges worth of damage (the first proc and the last one if the fight lasts long enough for it to tick out). That's the best thing about caustic - you get the full damage from every charge without any overlapping. The best poison can also be in the hands of the RNG. On Vyemm tonight for example, I only got 2 procs of hemotoxin in 3 minutes (one crit, one not)... but I gained 4k damage from that because the procs were 30 seconds apart and ticked their full damage. Had I been using caustic, I would only have gained about 2.5k from those 2 procs.
i currently have 4 points in hemo. tonite while clearing the early trash in IS i used a vile of caustic and then a vile of hemotoxin. the total dmg of the vials was within 2K of one another with hemo slightly ahead. it was less than a 1 % difference. I plan to stay at lvl 4 for awhile and play with this more. posting my results as i go.
My experience with hemotoxin and caustic supports this. I feel like caustic is more consistent. 5 points in something else would be more useful.
Tested ranger vs assassin using Caustic poisons only. Can confirm, trigger counts have been normalised. There was less then 2% difference from the trigger and crit # between the assassin and ranger. This is a huge change as a result of the combat changes. Both ranger and assassin are equally specced on the INT predator AA tree. The 10% bonus to caustic poisons from the new Ranger AA tree does give rangers a slight advantage in terms of raw damage from caustic poisons. (However, the normalization of proc's triggering has seen an overall drop in raw damage from caustic for rangers and an increase for assassins.) edited: actually too early to call that. Test was done in the new zones only. Will have a better idea on overall impact on raw damage once tested on the KoS zones. Plan on testing Hemotoxin next week. Message Edited by Gerdos on 12-12-2006 08:45 AM
Even if Hemotoxin procs a million times, you still only get the same tick rate. On longer fights it's probably better, but not necessarily. Your procs can be wasted by overlapping, or by the time it procs there may not be time for it to do any damage towards the end of the fight. I often get several caustic procs in a few seconds, which is great, but with hemotoxin it is actually worse for your DPS if it happens. Message Edited by Outerspace on 12-11-2006 07:03 PM
Well, I went ahead and maxed out hemotoxin for testing..At level 5, its 14 second duration, 3.5 seconds between ticks - which, over time, *should* yield more damage than caustic. based on the 4.9 proc/minute rate that they should show over extended parsing - hemotoxin should be on nearly full time, which yields 17 hits per minute. Now, based on base displayed, non crit dmg, at 313 per hit, yields 5321 dmg/minute.. Caustic, also at 4.9 proc rate, rounding it to an even 5, at 695 base non-crit damage, yields 3475 damage per minute. Yes, RNG will make caustic more effective periodically, but over the long run, hemotox *should* come out significantly ahead with the AA boost... Also, when considering overall group/raid dps..... Apply Poison buff gives someone else a hemotoxin proc... and, this is also modified by our AA =) I have noticed my dps rising since getting these AAs, but haven't done detailed log parsing to see if its a coincidental increase.
Just checked current parse for tonights raid... So far... out of 2,555,827 total damage i've done, 242,745 has been from hemotoxin, almost 10%.
I still have 70 GM Hemo on the broker for sale in Nektulos. Buy them please for your own tests. Please don't assume I was right, even a week of sample size is still pretty small. BTW if you are doing hemo tests can you detail your haste buffs plz? 10% is higher than what I got, I think my hemo was 7 or 8%. Message Edited by khufure on 12-19-2006 12:00 PM
Chicken scratch calculations, correct me plz if any are wrong. Using a 5 proc per minute rate as in poison description. All poisons are non-rare. My poison dmg... Caustic: 474...............Hemo: 213/proc for 5 procs(as explained later) Caustic- 474 x 5 = 2370 damage per minute Hemo(with 5/5 AA's)- following the trend of -2 each use you'll have -10 seconds on the duration bringing it down to 14 secs. With an instant proc and 1 every 6 secs you get 5 procs before it'd run out, so... 14 secs/5 procs = a proc every 2.8 seconds. 5 procs per minute, so... 60 seconds/5 procs = 12 seconds between each proc. Obviously procs wont occur so nicely so i will make a little adjustment to my later calculations. If it procs exactly on the 12 second marker each time you will lose 1 proc, so lets take it out... reducing it to: 213 x 4 = 852 213 x 3 = 639 So given a marginal error of 1 extra proc, you're still doing more damage than Caustic. 852 x 5 = 4260 639 x 5 = 3195 Your dmg per minute should then be not much less than 1k dmg unless you're really unlucky and as high as 2k more, but once again this is non-rare poison so all you rare users the differences will increase. I have no idea how to calculate in the crits so if someone else wants to do that be my guest. Frontload changes this a bit, but you wont be able to use it every fight so I think it's safe to say that with 5 AA's into hemo it should be better.
Hehe, good that we are getting some better information. :smileyhappy: The big big big big assumption is that Hemotoxin procs nicely for you. If it does, then yes it should over longer fights and on fights with multiple mobs be better. But unfortunately this seemed to be rare when I used it, and on a zone parse it seemed to be slightly less damage overall than caustic. What if you get 5 hemo procs in 15 seconds and no more for the rest of that particular minute? It's pefectly viable to get 5 caustic procs in 15 seconds. I'm going to try it again though once I get more AA points.
Goofed on the calculations a bit. Hemotoxin shouldn't have been divided by 5 to find the duration between ticks but instead 4 and the instant added on later. So the time between ticks is 3.5 seconds. This ultimately doesn't change any of the final numbers though. Message Edited by t0gar on 12-20-2006 12:11 AM
So far tonight.... 1,277,640 outgoing dmg.. 106,321 dmg from hemotoxin... running 211ish dps and 68 haste, more when i pop focus/honed reflexes... Average hit on hemotoxin is running 513, at 292 displayed dmg on the buff icon... Its a little low though, have had some downtime where it ran out and I didnt notice.. =)
Also, parsing from last night, showed Apply Poison at adept 3, on main tank, did 6.6% of his total damage output.. a bit better than it was pre-AA boost - not going to put points into boosting proc chance of it though.
Run a week of zone parses total damage caustic. Run a week of zone parses total damage hemo. Keep the same groups as much as possible. Compare. That's IMO the best way to calculate crits, damage, etc. I don't trust Sony display damage only results.
