Casting Fusion

What would be the possibility of moving the range check on Fusion to the beginning of the casting process instead of the end? Given the incredibly small range (even with extenders) and extremely long cast time it really sucks to wait the WHOLE time only to find out that nothing is in range. Or - heck - even grey it out if no target is in range... anything to make it less annoying to use.
Suppose I should mention that it is a Wizard spell, in case someone didn't know.

Fusion is a point blank, area effect (in a cone). There are lots of spells that are point blank area, not a single one of them checks to see if there's a target before it allows you to cast the spell. Get a brock's thermal shocker, the quest takes all of 5 minutes, and drop it on a hot bar. That has a 10m range, 11m if grouped with a troub. That'll give you a good idea of where you are in relation to the hitbox.

Just because they don't currently do it isn't really a good enough reason not to request that they make the check ahead of time. I know they don't do it now.. but with the amount of time required to cast this particular spell it is silly to have it check range after you have sat there doing nothing for the whole term.
I already have the item you mentioned though admittedly I don't carry it with me - but being forced to use another item just to effectively cast a major spell isn't a good answer either.

Umm.. Get better at telling range...problem solved... Amazing what learning the game can do..

If you had it your way, couldn't pre-cast fusion on mobs running in and if you casted fusion and needed to re-aim your fusion (you can spin around while casting it) you would be screwed if the mobs happen to move when you precasted it. The fact is the way it is now actually gives you more versatility to it and per your request would cause more problems because instead of simply making sure your facing the mobs when the cast is done, you'd have to hope the mobs stay exactly where you pointed beginning the cast and hope they stay in that spot cause there'd be nothing you could do.
Also not sure what you have spec'd, but theres an AA in the wizard tree that doubles the range of fusion making it 10m instead of 5. Another pro-tip if you have trouble aiming it is to hit your ambidextrous casting or just flat out go into melee mode stance and it will automatically face you towards the mob you are targetting.
Also brocks thermal shocker is pure win because you can cast it through almost every stifle, it doesn't resist and it can be cast while moving. It's almost silly not to keep it on a hotbar.

What I've always wanted, what we really need, is a nice embarassing effect or emote for when a wizard casts fusion, and misses.
We've all done it. Fight fight fight, cast fusion, mobs die, wait... *boom* - nothing but a field of grass. I don't think anyone else hears the boom but us, or sees an effect if the spell doesn't land. Definatly need an embarassing animation for when a wall of fire wafts harmlessly through an open field.
Or, for those extra special times when you're aiming for two mobs, and manage to throw the cone between them, hitting neither. Sure, you can shout "Field Goal!", but the game really needs to mock you automatically for it...

-Ken

I'm well versed in playing my class, thanks. I really didn't think asking for something that would essentially stop a lot of useless time wasting during the heat of a raid to be such a sore spot with folks.
I'm aware that the range on Fusion can be extended but there were other options I wanted on the AA tree - I'm aware that you can turn well casting it, etc.
Given that I have little control over where the mobs get placed or when they are moved in a raid setting the potential for wasted 'nuking' time is far greater than being able to fire it off on incoming and hoping they get put in range. But whatever, clearly people are happy being forced to mis-fire.

Dakkota@Unrest wrote:

I'll tell you what though - with Dakkota being one of the premiere wizards in the game I certainly am in no position to argue. I'm simply not qualified to the same degree.
I don't have max AA at the moment so the extending of Fusion was dropped in favor of other items to increase DPS output consistently. I still don't understand how you know where a mob is actually going to end up on a pull (other than in a group, non-raid setting) and that it will be within range of Fusion when it gets there but if you say so.
All I know from my perspective if while jousting in and out to avoid AE and tail swipes, etc. it would make the spell a lot more useful for me if I knew it was going to hit something when I casted it. As it stands now I can get close but be a fraction off and waste 4+ seconds doing no DPS at all.

Loendar@Unrest wrote:

It's a long post but instead of simply saying the current way is better...ill try to illustraite comparison of the current way verses what I am imagining as your requested way.
1. If you are well versed playing your class, you would not have this problem..or maybe have it far less? The reason I posted what I did is because this would not stop alot of mis-firing and wasted time and I would venture to think it would create more wasted time and mis-fire. No its not a sore spot, I simply disagreed. I only offered what I thought would be helpful tips or advice to lessen the problem, assuming nothing on your behalf.
2. I checked your AA spec and it says you are spec'd for enhance fusion. Is that out-dated? I was going to say that spec'ing max dps for 3 or so years raiding + my current setup has never skipped over the fusion enhance AA. Was going to give my personal advice to spec it but I looked up your spec and not only saw that your spec is totally fine but that you also had that AA. Not sure what you meant but keep that AA brotha.
3. I am still greatly confused as to why a range check on beginning of cast would lessen the problem. If you are will to read a counter-arguement i'll provide some scenarios I see this being problematic.
This would actually create more of a problem cause right now you have until the bar is done casting to make sure the mobs are in front of you. If you pre-casted and the mobs move, despite effort to turn yourself around and point at the mobs, the check would have already been done and you would have to interrupt your cast and turn.
What you are asking for would essentially be the same mechanic if when fusion began casting you were stun locked in place. I prefer to be able to constantly adjust my fusion cone while casting rather than be bottlenecked into the 1 spot i started casting it in. That is technically what you said but I think I know what you are asking for.
I think you want it to be, if mobs are in front of me when I begin casting fusion, no matter where the mobs end up as long as they were in front of me, they are going to get hit by my fusion. For Eq2 mechanics this just isn't possible and our frontol cone upon beginning its cast would have to place some sort of 'detrimental' or buff on up to 3 mobs in range that says when my spell is done casting they will get hit by fusion because they were in its way at the beginning of the cast. This also would defy how an AoE works and would get very confusing when you consider the spell double attack mechanic, which when it fires off actually does a second AoE not just a second attack on the mobs hit. And I know nobody likes pvp/bg but this mechanic would open some quite borderline exploitaious feeling possibilities.
If it did work this way I think you are suggesting, while it would make it indefinite that you hit a mob if you cast it in front of you this would also nix a few possible approaches now that give leeway for adjustment and other fusion potential. You would not be able to precast fusion because it would simply check and say there are no mobs in front of you and when the cast would be done, it would hit nobody that happened to move into range. Since fusion does have a long cast time I have found it sometimes saving time to cast it asap when I know mobs are surrounding me and use the 2.5 - 5s of casting duration to quickly swivel my toon into place for a max potential hit.
Botton line is though having the range check at at beginning of cast would force more prediction and hope of perfection than having the check at the end of the cast. It is not a sore spot nor do I like mis-firing fusion, please do not assume just because you are having difficulty with this spell that all wizards are and us disagreeing are just simply putting up with the same problem you have. No. We have found techniques, approaches and methods to combat the type of problems you are running into with the spell and atleast I am trying to entertain your side of the story by thinking of its literal application and what that would implement for using fusion, while providing my own accounts and beleifs why you have more potential with the way the spell works currently.
Explain in detail considering all the possible situations how the pro's of creating this mechanic would outweight the cons.

ps. I am simply doing this to entertain the debate/discussion, but in all honesty this request defies Eq2 aoe. Every AoE in the game, including enemy AoEs all hit their respective ranges when the spell is finished casting - this would require far more changes I think than simply adjusting the wizard spell itself because your issue could be said true for any AoE only fusion is the easiest to miss, but the potential lies for any aoe what you are saying. Im a sucker for details so sorry if this is super lengthy...I just wanted to make sure I hit all bases. My biggest problem with essay papers always was word limits ><

I decided not to quote that last one so as to make this a smaller post.
Really - my single point was the knowing you were in range is > than not knowing. And I'm still unclear why that is a bad thing. Are there ways to work around it and feel pretty sure you are in range? Sure... but should you have to guess (or make an educated guess?) Given the cast time on this spell guessing costs DPS imho.
If the range check were upfront you would know immediately - adjust and recast. No harm, no foul. Could things move out of range after you started? Yes. But that can happen now. My suggestion doesn't impact being able to turn while casting (and I'm not clear why anyone would think it would) - you can turn during any spell you cast now. I'm clearly missing something on that part.
And - you are correct - I was looking at Spell Reach AA when I said I didn't have it not recalling that Enhance Fusion had that all by itself. My bad.
Truth be told - it's not like I have this issue on every cast or something. It just seemed like a pointless hurdle to using the spell effectively. What you say about AE's is mechanically correct (of course) so I suspect it isn't something that will be addressed but I still wanted to toss it out there.
I never expected the mobs to get hit if the moved out of range after the spell started. They don't now and I wasn't requesting anything so drastic. I simply don't see the point in wasting 4+ seconds standing there only to find out - whoops - I wasn't 'quite' close enough. If it told me immediately that the mobs are in range and started - sure they could still move - but that isn't as likely or often as it is to fire and find out you were an inch shy.
Maybe it is only me - maybe other wizards never miss with this thing due to being out of range. If so, I'll just need to work on it more. /shrug
Edit:
Thinking about this a bit more - I see the problem with the range check being upfront if the mobs do move out of range during the process. As you mentioned, they would still have to get hit since the check was already made. The only solution would be to check at the start, so you don't even start casting if you aren't going to hit anything, and then again when it fires to make sure things are still there. More overhead - I see that.
Pro: No wasted 4 second intervals thinking you are in range of something you aren't.
Con: No casting on incoming - though in my experience this isn't a biggie since you don't know if the mobs will land in the cone on incoming anyway... and if they don't you don't find out until it doesn't fire.. again.
I don't disagree that there are ways around it by using an item beforehand - I'm just not a fan of having to rely on something not everyone has (though they can get) just to work around the mechanic. I don't know a lot about other classes PBAE - but if melee's are using them they are already in melee range and the mechanic issue wouldn't impact them anyway. If it is other casters - do they all use Brock's to get around it? If a single item is required to make effective use of a spell doesn't that just SCREAM that the mechanic is flawed?

Loendar@Unrest wrote:

The reason we got that impression, is that it seemed that you wanted the case where if a mob would not be hit, as decided at cast time, the spell doesn't cast. So if you're standing near a mob, in range, but not facing it (for whatever reason). This is a case where if you fire fusion as you're standing, it won't hit anything.
If you're looking for a range (but no aim) check at cast time, that's less objectionable, but still not a change I would like.
Loendar@Unrest wrote:

People have been asking for visible range indicators for years, that's a seperate topic. Knowing > Not Knowing - sure. But what do you want the game to do with that information? If your the answer is Abort the Cast, that's where we disagree. I pressed the button, I want the spell to go off, I don't want the game deciding it knows better.
Please don't suggest taking away our ability to do that, because you have not yet gotten a good feel for the range of your spell. It comes with time.
And if your suggestion is not "Abort the Cast" on a failed range check, then I guess I'm not real clear on what your actually suggesting...
-Ynnek

It would be cool if you could have an option of showing spell ranges in circles around you. Like showing you where it would go if you hovered your mouse over it.

It would look weird all the time but if you wanted to check it would make things a lot simpler in terms of finding what is and isn't going to be in range when the spell goes off.

Ynnek@Kithicor wrote:

No - you pretty much got it. Though it wouldn't be an abort the cast as not allow the cast. You say you don't want the game telling deciding for you - but it already does that with pretty much every other spell you cast. If you are out of range, even on AOE's, the icon greys out removing the option from you.
This would be the same thing.

Loendar@Unrest wrote:

I like being able to have Fusion casting right where I know the tank is about to pull the mob, and have it hit just as it arrives.
This spell, and others like it, require some thought in their use. You can't just target a mob and cast it like you can with single target spells. Those that spend time working with it are able to use it to great effect though.
My suggestion, rather than trying to change the game to suit yourself, spend more time getting to know the spell as it is and how most of us like it.

Pervis wrote:

And - in a nutshell - that is really the only thing that would change. You couldn't use it on the pull and anticipate where the mob might show up at. And, by the same token, if you guess wrong you aren't waiting 4 second to find out.
The way that PBAE's work are actually the exception to the way every other spell in the game functions. I get that some folks like them the way they are and don't mind missing and wasting time if they happen to guess wrong. I just don't happen to feel that way.
Let me make something clear. It's not like I don't use the spell or know how it currently works.. it's not even like I miss more than I hit with it, I simply don't like the guess work involved in it. And not matter how good to profess to be at judging range you are going to miss with this thing after wasting a period of time.
Given the responses on this thread it seems that people are happy to find work-arounds and adapt to overcome the shortcomings of the spell. I honestly didn't expect everyone to be so content with missing a big bang simply for misjudging some distand but I was wrong. There is no argument that there is more skill involved in using it the way it is but there is also a degree of blind luck and that is the component that I think sucks.

Loendar@Unrest wrote:

If thermal shocker turns red on what you are trying to hit, then stop casting, It's not that hard with a 10m spell to judge if they are in range or not with the current mechanics.

If you realize you're not going to be in range, just interrupt the cast so you don't waste your time, run in to the mob (casting Bewilderment and Thunder Clap while running) then re-cast Fusion.
It's a beefy tripple Ice Comet. If it were a simple AE spell, then it would be a little overpowered. It takes a little while to perfect it's use.

The point is that you don't realize you're not going to be in range - clearly if I knew I wasn't in range I wouldn't start the cast. ;p
As for the thermal shocker - yes, I'm aware that you can use it to judge range. The point is your shouldn't have to use another unrelated item to make effective use of a spell. It's great that you found a work around for a broken mechanic but that doesn't make it any less screwed up.
It appears that the vast majority of people are happy with having to work around the mechanic for whatever reason. And before someone says that it isn't a broken mechanic - it is certainly a unique mechanic. Every other spell type we cast checks for range up front and greys out the icon this is the ONLY type that doesn't. It is the exception to the overwhelming rule.
While that doesn't make it broken in and of itself it certainly sets a good case for it. In all likelihood they are simply using the toon as the base check for a PB spell and you are always in range - but it defies how every other spell works.
You all like it this way, which is great. The only reason given that makes any sense at all is that you can use it on the pull and I would be really interested to know how many of those miss. You simply can't predict where the mob will stop when the spell fires with any degree of certainty.

Loendar@Unrest wrote:

It's not a unique mechanic either. There are simply several different classifications of spells:
Ranged direct damage
Ranged encounter
Ranged pbae (rare, and kind of a misnomer)
Pbae
All 3 of the ranged ones perform a check to see if the primary target of the spell is within your max cast range. The pbae, by definition, is a point blank area of effect. The target is the area, not the enemy. Fusion is by no means unique in being in the category of "pbae", other than the fact that it's a cone and not a 360 arc.
These classifications certainly aren't limited to wizards either. Combat arts follow these same classifications. Being able to cast a pbae knockdown/stun, for example, while moving into the cloud of mobs is a huge benefit over having to wait until you're in range of the mobs before being allowed to start casting it.

Aule@Guk wrote:

Okay - you can have that. There are four types of spells/CA's and three of them function the same in regards to judging range. I just disagree that the fourth shouldn't follow the same rules - make the range check up front like all the others do instead of on the back-end which makes it more likely to miss.