Why is it that people who don't raid seem to hate those that do? Why is it that people can't seem to understand that raid mobs are totally different from group encounters? (in much the same way that named heroic encounters are different from solo trash mob encounters) Paladins do need a slight tweak. I myself don't mind takin a back seat on raids. I am usually the one leading raids though, so I don't desire to be frantically mashing taunt buttons while trying to type out instructions or say something over teamspeak, or both. I think the self only ward idea that uses up devout essences is a very good idea. Or perhaps boost a certain resist. Guardians should be the first and best choice of tanking if gear is comparable. Gaurdians don't get much else besides tanking. They signed up to be a front line tank and ONLY a front line tank. Paladins should do in a pinch. And if you have a well coordinated raid force, it should not be impossible for paladins to tank any encounter in the game. Right now we can't do that though. Paladins against t7 raid encounters are overmatched by and large. Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap>
Please don't get me wrong. I do not HATE people who raid. In fact, I am in a raiding guild, I just haven't been able to raid yet as my level is lower than the rest of the guild (I'm currently in as a "friend" rather than "member" who raids). I do plan on raiding as soon as I can, and do participate when I can. What I dislike are the people who want to be equal to guardians without sacrificing something. They are as entitled to their opinion as I am, and I feel that sometimes those of us who do not raid need to speak up, because some of the changes that are made for raiders to affect those of us who do not raid as well. When I start raiding, I am perfectly comfortable being support as I am being a main tank. I don't have a desire to be MT all the time, though I wouldn't mind being a valid choice for MT on occasion. I just don't expect to tank unless asked. I will never ask to put me in over someone else unless its painfully obvious that I am a better choice. I want to see a win, I don't care who gets the snot beat out of them for 3 mins to accomplish it.
I hate people who raid so much i am putting together a website all about raiding ... I do hate people who think that raiding elevates them above everyone else and that they have a mystical greater understanding of life because of it.. just means they have more time and the patience to go through a zone wiping many times until they work out the right strategy.
What I dislike are the people who want to be equal to guardians without sacrificing something. You mean like: 1) Debuffs 2) Offensive/Defensive group buffs 3) High self hit points 4) Group HP Buffs 5) Superior ranged damage (try it post LU-21, wowzorz... you can even use it to effectively double your base melee damage if you time it) 6) Group damage absorbption 7) Interrupts All that... plus better avoidance and better mitigation... all for what? Ward - Thats nice, but again we covered that as being roughly equivalent to the Warrior's group Mit buff Heals - Massively inefficient on a small power-pool without a lot of FT on tank gear Ress - Its pretty nice, but its more of a bonus than anything else What drives me nuts are the people who think that its ok for Guardians to be the only viable raid tank. Thats not what was promised, and Ill tell you straight up that I rolled my Paladin to tank, not to be a crappy healer. Message Edited by Anariale on 03-28-200607:38 PM
lol.. cmon man.. you have a serious inferiority complex.. i know a bunch of Guardians who claim they are the most persecuted and nerf'd of all the classes.. the grass is always greener on the other side.. play a Guardian then complain about how awesome they are.
Anariale, the group dmg absorption is a mixed blessing, seriously. Especially if you have a conjuror in the guardians group and they decide to sacrifice their pet for mana and hp lol. Also, number 7. Paladins get interrupts that work on epic targets as well. Almost every fighter gets at least 1. Thundaarr Unrest <Nightcap>
Also, number 7. Paladins get interrupts that work on epic targets as well. Almost every fighter gets at least 1. Paladins get 2 interrupts, - 1 second CT, 20 second recast DD - 2 second CT, 15 second recase AEDD (Pardon me if Im off on the casting time for Brimstone, I cant check in game currently) Both of these spells are highly mana inefficient Guardians get 2 interrupts, - 0.2 second CT, 8 second recast taunt - 0.5 second CT, 10 second? recast kick The Guardian's interrupts are vastly superior on both their recast timers, and the fact that their casting time is short enough to use when you see a caster start casting. Lining up an interrupt from a Paladin on a mob is extremely difficult. The argument is something that Guardians get BETTER than Paladins. Interrupts is another category. And please, its not like Im saying Paladins have nothing. Im just refuting the argument that Guardians have nothing other than tanking tools. All you need to tank is threat, mitigation and HP. There is a lot more there for people who truly care about playing the class. Granted, Ive yet to meet a guardian (outside mine of course) who doesnt get all pissy when they arent MTing. Yes, I have a baby Guardian.
Cool so let me ask this did they have a guard do it first and then once they learned what to do then they let their pally have second crack or is Savageknight their first choice tank? Not that it is really important though the next step will be to see if a pally can tank all the content in KoS before the next expansion. With the buff to guards Mitigation I m thinking it will be really hard for a pally to make up for this on the hardest raid mobs in KoS.
I wouldn't want to disclose FoH techniques or foolishly speak on their behalf about their raid tactics but I will say that anyone can see that they have two Guardians and a Paladin and their roster is trimmed and tuned 4tw. Savageknight shares the tanking load and isn't there to just look cool and I remember reading a post from Noah not that long ago about the "first choice" being situational and that Guardians aren't always on point in his raids. (I'm sure enough trolling will find it) To be completely honest, I don't think THIS is a single MT mob for any guild. It takes multiple tanks and well organized teamwork to win this raid. (not that my guild has even come close... but we're NOT competing with anyone and will tackle this thing on our own casual schedule)
I completely disagree. Guardians are supposed to provide protection to their group. Paladins are meant to heal the group. They are polar opposites almost... one prevents, one heals. They should tank the same, exactly the same... as all tanks should. Then they should have flavour to distinguish the classes. Where paladins get heals, guardians should get abilities that protect group members from melee attacks, aoes, better intercede line (pretending of course this is ever fixed). I really, truely wished that people get out of the mindset that just because its been wrong from the start that its ok to still be wrong now. Tanking should be tanking. The core should be the same. Therefore, anything that effects Mitigation / Avoidance (defence/parry/deflection/block) / HP / Aggro / Item Restrictions / should be relooked, or taken away. Simply because they effect the core tanking rules. Flavour should be what else they can do thats NOT tanking. This shouldnt be that hard with the 4 plate classes, working in avoidance tanks is a little more challenging because they messed up how avoidance works on epic nameds.
Thats nice in theory but the only way to make that effective is to give each class the exact same spells, just with different names. there is no other way to ballance things such as Guardians mit buffs vs pallies wards/heals and the like. Both of those kinds of abilities affect how much damage is taken and in a perfect world should affect it the same amount. Its just really hard to ballance those things. I'm not saying that all tanks shouldnt tank equal, I happen to think they are about asclose as they are going to get without completely stripping all classes and rebuilding them from the ground up. In reality its probably easier to do away with the 6 tank calsses and make 1 plate tank, you can choose the types of skills as you level to make them into what you want to RP (ie RP a pally). as it stands alot of pallies iknow want to RP a pally but have guard tanking skill lines... this way they could do that.
Sirlutt, while I see your point I strongly disagree. It is actually not that complicated to balance the core tanking roles. Simply, lump things into 4 categories: 1) Any tank buffs that effect the Guardian/Paladin/etc. 2) Utility spells (that do not effect tanking) 3) DPS CAs/Spells 4) Taunts #3 is very easy to balance. DPS is just a calculation of time. How this DPS actually comes about really doesnt make a difference. A large number of our combat abilities are for DPS (very very few have utility to them as most stuns/stifles etc dont work on epics). #4 Taunting should also result in providing an equal of holding aggro against the encounter. To be honest, my personal opinion is that in a balanced raid with a proper setup aggro management should be trivialized if the tanking is going full out on taunts. #2 This here is where opinion comes into play. Paladins get wards and heals, Guardians should get group protection arts/buffs to prevent DMG (superior intercedes, perhaps protect members from AoEs or something... imagination can come into play here).. same goes for SKs and Zerkers. All that really matters is that these things 1) mean something, and 2) Nothing seems far more important than another class. If everything is pretty equally important then all can be satisified and a major portion of flavour can happen here. Please note, the ability to ward and heal is more effective for the raid when you are NOT tanking due to interrupts and cast times, hence, are very easily part of the utility of paladins. #1 This is actually very simple. Make it so that either they have no buffs, or exactly the same. If we actually consider some of our core spells, they are exactly the same. Our Defensive Stance and our Block buff are the same as every other class. There should be no self mitigation buffs, or parry buffs, or defense buffs that every other class doesnt have simply because this effects the CORE ability to tank. And all tanks should have their core equal. Besides, even in essence the word Guardian means to protect another, not theirself.
Thats nice in theory but the only way to make that effective is to give each class the exact same spells, just with different names. Wow, thats a fairly ignorant PoV. DAOC has 4 heavy tank classes. All 4 can tank endbosses roughly just as well as any other one... and yes, there are very distinct differences in the different classes. The objective is to make the core of tanking be about the same, and have the utility change around. In this particular situation, only one aspect is really out of whack (Physical Mitigation). The problem is that its one of the two the most important stats for tanking.
This is actually the least of my concerns. I've already easily got my raid buffed Mitigation past 6k. I'm much more concerned about their parry / block / defense buffs, as well as attack nullifiers.
