BRAWLER CHANGES - WHEN????????Here's a few ideas.

Aull wrote:

Underwater Basket weaving. Lets include the difficult parts of the game. There is the holding your breath praying brawlers get fixed next expansion. Like we do every expansion. Guess what. Im breaking the NDA. Brawlers will be broken next expansion.
(We all know the water is there to make the reeds softer essentually making it easier, Just like they try to pretend they give brawlers something amazing like 100 percent avoidance for a duration or targert lock. Pffff brawlers arent broken.)

That's right, brawlers are in great shape! Why, look at everything a brawler gets:
The lowest uncontested avoidance of all the fighter classes!
The lowest damage mitigation of all the fighter classes!
Loads of pointless contested avoidance to allow MOBs to show-off their Strikethroughs!
The excitement of random 1-shot deaths, made even more harrowing by lack of any form of personal death save!
The thrill of deperately tabbing-between countless MOBs to try and hold aggro without any significant AoE DPS!
Single-target DPS output to compete with bards, summoners, and druids!
Invaluable utility effects like group-wide feign death!
But wait... There's MORE! Act now and you can be the laughing stock of the entire EQ2 population! Earn the scorn and derision of your peers while you listen to people talk about raids you've never seen in level chat! Free yourself from the responsibility of a dedicated class role and embark on a relaxing vacation free of raiding and PuGs, be a brawler!

The_Cheeseman wrote:

I'm sorry but brawlers do NOT have the lowest uncontested avoidance. That's complete and utter bull. It's pretty easy for a raiding monk to have upwards of 40% uncontested avoidance. Granted, we can give this to the plate tanks and turn them into way more uber tanks, but hey, at least that guarantees us at least one raid slot in any guild where the leader has half a brain. Not to mention, we dps more along the lines of just below the brigands, are on top of the fighter dps for single target (unless you're competing against a Shadowknight with obscene buffage), and have hands down the BEST single-target aggro generation in game. We beat the pants off a guardian when it comes to holding aggro for sure.
Look, brawlers desperately need to be fixed, yes. I'm certainly not going to pretend that everything is all peachey-keen, but stuff like this just exacerbates the problem by making people think we're worthless when we're not.

Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:

x2 this.

I'm guessing the claim about DPS being on par with bards comes from before the proc nerf (so all the way back before summer?), where I distinctly remember people here complaining about dirges creeping over them on palace trash parses and troubadours being about equal. Could we axe this one already?
As for parsing on par with summoners on single target content... Do your summoners suck or something?
Uncontested avoidance being the lowest of all fighters was true from KoS (where uncontested avoidance was introduced in the first place, along with mob to hit bonuses) and up until now - in offensive stance it is still true I suppose, because of how brawler stances work; looking at defensive stance, it hasn't been true since the launch of tSO - you can complain about us needing to spend points in the tSO AA tree to obtain the edge our classes are supposed to have from the get-go if you want, though; that does suck.
The rest seems about right.
And Vinka should stop beating the pants off her guild's guardians.

Okay, I fully admit to employing hyperbole in that post, but it was really more of a "blow-off steam" thing than a "I want to post an honest measurement of brawler abilities."
However, I do still claim that we have the lowest uncontested avoidance in the majority of situations. Brawlers can only match the uncontested avoidance of a shield-wearer when we are in defensive stance. In that stance, our melee accuracy is abysmal (like all fighters) and since most of our aggro relies on melee attacks, holding aggro in defensive is extremely difficult, if possible at all. Therefore, I claim that since most tanks do so in offensive (or for brawlers, balanced) stance, we do, in fact, have lower uncontested than other fighters.
Also, bards definitely account for a lot more DPS than monks, they just don't show as much of it on ACT. We can generally parse higher than an individual bard, but that DPS number we got was also inflated by the bard himself. Heck, if it were possible to show how much of the raid's overall DPS was thanks to bards, we'd probably have predators and sorcerers up in arms.
Yes, we do have the highest single-target aggro generation (as long as we're in offensive stance). In fact, our single-target aggro generation is even slightly higher than the aggro SKs and Paladins can generate against every MOB around them! Why am I suddenly not feeling so special...
Getting brawlers fixed isn't going to happen unless SOE realizes how honestly broken we are. I love my class as much as anybody, which is why I have played this monk for 5 years. However, there definitely are major flaws in the current design of the class, and they definitely are causing brawlers to be considered the least-useful class in the game. Playing it off like we're only minorly inconvenienced when we're almost completely unable to compete with other classes in our primary role will only serve to make others wonder why we're complaining. Brawlers are broken, we need to be fixed.

The_Cheeseman wrote:

Guardian's accuracy is not abyssmal in defensive (due to the group buff they have).
Warriors in offensive stance for max damage and thus aggro will usually be dual wielding and thus not be getting uncontested avoidance either.
But when you are able to tank in offensive is when you don't need the avoidance. It is when you need to be in defensive that it really matters.

Several people mentioned DPS as one thing which can be balanced.
I agree IF and ONLY IF it's understood that we're talking about T1 DPS here.
If the class isn't good enough to tank, and is only brought along on groups and raids for dps, then they need to generate as much dps as other classes which are brought along solely for dps. Nobody's going to bring along a crappy fighter just because his dps isn't qute as deep in the gutter as other fighters, when they can instead bring along a dps class which does MUCH nicer dps.
Brawlers aren't even close to T1 dps currently.

In any event, by now SoE has made all the decisions they're going to make with regards to the new expansion. What will be will be and we'll find out if brawlers get shafted this year too.

My magic 8-ball says.... Outlook not very good at all.

My questions are how many brawlers want brawlers to be strickly dps and loose survivability as the cost for that increase in dps?
Or
How many brawlers want brawlers to be as good as plate tanks in survival and loose what dps they currently have?
These questions are probably irrelevant now any way.

Aull wrote:

well cant do either of these with out taking away what brawlers really are. if they just make avoidance worth something and nerf plate tanks aviodance so it would match the mit a brawler could get things my even out.

Aull wrote:

Why should we lose dps to gain survivability, the plates except for guards out dps us.
Why should we lose survivability to gain dps when all fighters except for guards have better survivability then us and have better dps.
They have us so messed up most of you are willing to settle for a crumb, well i want my sandwich back they can keep the crumbs

This is actually a good question. We can't really expect SoE to slot brawlers into a desired place when even the players can't agree what brawlers should do. It's not reasonable to give them both T1 DPS and good tanking ability.
There was a poll some time ago on EQFlames and as I recall there wasn't any clear direction from people who were supposedly playing brawlers.
If it were up to me, with one caveat I'd put them into the usual fighter role of tank. They're fighters, they can already tank if geared better then average, it's a reasonable place for them to be. HOWEVER:
That caveat is that there is a problem which all fighters face which also must be addressed. That problem is there's no need for more then one fighter in a group or (usually) 2 or so in a raid. Extra fighters just drag everyone else down by taking slots which could have been given to another non-fighter class which could contribute more. SoE needs to find a reason why groups can profitably use more then one fighter just like groups can currently profitably use more then one healer, scout, or caster. Likewise, they need to fix it so that raids can profitably use more then two fighters, just like raids can currently use more then two healers, scouts, or casters. Things should be set up so that frequently an optimum raid force would consist of six fighters.
If SoE can't or won't fix this problem that all fighters face, then adding brawlers to the mix just means even more fighters competing for too few slots. In that case it would probably be best for everyone for brawlers to be made into T1 melee dps instead, with survivability comperable to other T1 melee dps.
But I'd prefer the tanking role. That's what I had in mind when I rolled my brawler, that's what I enjoy doing.

ShinGoku wrote:

My Tarot cards agree with your 8-ball

Gilasil wrote:

Brilliant post.
It has been said that dps, utility, and heals stack. Tanking to a point doesn't. I think that is why many brawlers claim or want to be more dps oriented. Brawler utility is not a reason for having them in groups or raids cause they really do not offer much. Tanking has always been centered around a plate/shield wearing fighter too. So again this leaves brawlers with the title that if you want a tank get a plate and if you want dps get a dps class.
If brawlers remain a mix of ok tanking and ok dps then they will continue to suffer. Brawlers not being able to excel in either department is what keeps them lingering in the shadows.
I don't think that any fighter like my sk should be dumping out high dps numbers on both single and aoe targets in plate armor and using a sword and board and having solid utility should be happening. This too has made many brawlers who witness this ponder the question as why this is allowed to happen for a class like the sk and brawlers remain in their current state of not being able to dump out those dps numbers duel wielding and their survival still not up to par.
Brawlers even with what survival tools are given them will go "splat" in a moments notice faster and far more consistantly than a plate fighter. This has been stated more times than I can recall. This for one should most definately be addressed if brawlers are to fulfil what a fighter tries to accomplish.

Aull wrote:

Just ot be fair you cant just lump shadowknights into the dps vs tanking debate of brawlers, because zerkers produce comparable dps. Paladins even out dps brawlers vs aoe encounters and are not terribly behind them in single target. Heck even guards do more aoe dps then brawlers if they spec for aoe auto atk.

Very true Gungo. My zerker too does excellent fighter dps. Not as strong in single target but with his mythical aoe dps is far better than my bruisers aoe dps. Not trying to change the subject but if my zerker didn't have the mythical then he to would be behind crusaders in aoe just for the fact that crusaders have more aoe abilites.
That is why I believe that many brawlers are upset when they do not have the survival of plates and brawler dps isn't as high zw when comparing them to the more aoe damage that plates have if aoe targets are heavly present. In a raid and heroic setting at least. Single target dps for the brawlers is good in everyday norrath and same for survival with same lvl or lower lvl mobs.
I do believe that brawler avoidance should be noticable or actually work vs the higher lvl mobs. Its just sad when a brawler is tanking and everything looks good until they are against a mob that strikes through any avoid defense they possess and then splat. Dead brawler. This might not be as evident with fully end game geared brawlers. For those that are not fully end game geared are the ones that suffer the most.

Hereo@Unrest wrote:

/nods slowly.

My divining rod says the same, as do my chicken bones and my force meditations lol

ShinGoku wrote:

My dice say you guys are dumb for believing in the predictions of inanimate objects.

BChizzle wrote:

LOL.

I think the easiest quickest fix would be to boost brawler dps so that bruiser dps is comparable to swash and monk comparable to brigand. You would be able to hold aggro. This should make brawlers the highest dps fighters to offset being the spikeyest/softest. I mean, a good rogue should be putting out more damage than a shadowknight.
This would bring more raid desirability. You can bring rogues for debuffs, or brawlers for snap tanking/avoidance buff/other... Raid dps would go up with brig debuffs, and tanks would take less damage with swash debuffs, but brawlers would bring the same personal dps and support the raid in different ways. It might be better to bring a bruiser that parses like a swash and can do other utility type things on a raid rather than another assassin that parses a bit higher.
You would still have the same survivability you have now (which isn't horrible), but do enough dps and other tricks to warrant a slot in a raid/group. I admit I've never played a brawler passed 50, and I don't know the details of how to work something like that out... but I think the general idea could work for most brawlers.