I do wonder, till SF i played warden and mystic; my main was the warden and i rolled the mystic since we needed one for raiding. I quickly enjoyed the mystic, she was really good at soloing , almost as good as the warden; and she was also fine as a solo healer (she needed less messy groups than the warden but she did ok). Since SF is out my mystic is getting outclasseed in most domains by my warden. - Solowise the warden is faster, safer, and she can tackle harder stuff (stampede is bad solo, long recast, slow to cast ... the warden get a passive huge dps boost proc that is permanent). - The warden solo heal way better and never run out of mana. - The warden is now as much in demand for raid than the mystic. I do also raid here and there and i still have to see a mystic, all the shaman are not defilers (As always in G1 with impressive parse when damage is only focussed on the tank).
The mystic in our raid force makes me weep whenever he breaks 50k dps on fights. Honestly, I think mystics and defilers are pretty well balanced - defilers may have a slight healing edge, while mystics have a pretty enormous edge for dps buffing melee groups, and do far more damage than defilers could ever do. But inquisitors/furies tend to be better at dps buffing anyway, so it's not a crucial balancing point between the two shaman classes, I think.
Odys@Storms wrote: Mystics are a hybrid class; they bring some moderate healing ability while also providing quite a bit of dps (in almost any situation) as well as some really nice melee oriented buffs. A warden is probably going to outperform your mystic in every way except two: group buffing DPS, and spike damage mitigation (primarily on a tank). For solo healing a group for most raid mobs, the warden has a clear cut advantage from the sheer power of his HoTs and multiple group cures. Pretty much, your mystic is the healer that a melee group is going to want, but it can be a bit harder to solo heal some fights (with chain AE detrimentals), but is doable none-the-less. So: overall healing: Warden > Mystic (pretty much for everything other than healing someone who will likely be 1 shotted or preventing spike dmg from say, the tank) overall dps ability: Warden > Mystic overall dps oriented buffing: Mystic > Warden Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote: Actually, a defiler in a pure dps setup, should destroy a mystic but I don't think I've ever had the please of seeing a defiler have the opportunity to use such a spec hehe And a defiler has a distinct healing advantage over a mystic assuming equal gear, AA, skill, etc. Mystics tend to buff melee dps more and churn out more dps while still healing to practically full potetntial than defilers, while defilers provide a significant edge in survivability (and a slight edge in overall debuff capacity tmk). Basically, mystics, inquisitors, and wardens get the good DPS rep because with melee DPS it is very easy to keep tossing in some moderate damage abilities (and auto attack) while still healing to nearly full potential.
Hene wrote: Hene, I respect your opinion a lot, but I have to say I just can't agree with that one. The reason mystics can parse so high is because of Stampede's interaction with VC in short fights, and dogdog's higher hit rate for mystics with VC. If you can think of something defilers can do along the same lines I'm all ears, but I just don't think there's any way for a defiler to match a mystic even if they have some absurd all-damage spec. As far as the healing edge goes, I don't know if I'd characterize it as enormous because of the number of differences we have. Defilers certainly benefit from the anti-magic ward on our mit buff and the red-adorn ward we can attach to our hp buff, larger group ward via AA, and we have deathward, maelstrom, and nightmares, but it seems a little hard to qualitatively measure that against things like Oberon, Torpor, and your regenerating anti-nox ward. I'm not saying that defilers and mystics are equal, mind you, but that I'm not convinced that defilers really enjoy a large healing edge.
Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote: I should have clarified hehe, a defiler can destroy a mystic on a zone wide or a fight that lasts a good bit longer than stampede. Stampede ends up adding less than CoB to most zone wide parses (for my mystic at least), while defiler's get the added 5 crit bonus which would add only slightly less dps to a zone wide, but it won't allow defilers to spike nearly as high. And it is in an agreement among mystics, that if you are dpsing only, and do not need to cast many heals cures etc, spells end up giving your more dps than their CA-conversion counterparts. A defiler also has the benefit of several Defiler tree AAs (as opposed to the CA-conversions that mystics have) that will increase spell damage on top of the couple of AAs that both shamans have in common. So the added bit to spells as well as having a lot more spells than mystic and maintaining about the same auto attack and dog-dog potential compensates for stampede, and probably ends up boosting them ahead of mystics. However, for spike damage (i.e. single, short fight parses) a mystic will come out on top more often that not. Chath@Antonia Bayle wrote: I agree that it is harder to come to a solid conclusion about the healing advantage due to the differences, but I feel that the survivability from a defiler well out weighs the survivability from a mystic. I think the major player in this is the mythical buff difference. The mystic's spirit tap ability does wonders for a group, but is really an emergency-only spell, while defilers have a consitent and reliable group heal that can be involved on their standard rotation of healing, iirc. As for the proc on their myth buff/weapon, mystics get a DA proc, while defilers get incoming magic damage reduction as well as increase beneficial potency (both groupwide? or am I remembering the effect wrong). For the last part of the mythical buff, mystics get extra ability mod (number in the hundreds) to their wards (ST, group, oberon, and prophetic) as long as they are not capped on it (i.e. have the fury buff). Defilers get an additional heal added to each ST and group ward they cast (heals for 3k or so afaik). Now, for abilities, Death Ward in general may not have the healing power of oberon, but properly used can be much, much more helpful to prevent massive spike damage, while the regenning ward helps mitigate some of the damage over time. They both have their situational advantages. Temp pets: mystic pet is literally useless, defilers is only slightly more useful as I've heard. Etc, etc etc. It would seem that the unique abilities (and AAs) generally balance out, offering a bit of AE healing-help to defilers, and giving mystics some more reliable drawn-out damage prevention (and that awesome nox group ward over time). Finally, for the group wards, defilers get an extra 10% potency and get a very sexy 1.5 second casting time (with 100% casting speed). To sum it all up, both classes have their perks, but between the beneficial potency (8% from myth and 5% extra from heal stance + some extra crit bonus albeit small), damage reduction, group ward, and AE healing, I would say defilers do have the advantage. And for testimonies, just ask some mystics who betrayed to defilers this xpac, I know of one in particular who attested to the definitely significant gains in all out healing ability upon swapping to the dark side maybe he can come shed some more light on the subject. (and whew, sorry about the long winded post...I even editted out a bunch of crap)
Going back to the OP: The main reason Druids are pulling ahead of Shamans now is because they get more out of the addition of SF crit bonus gear than Shamans do. Although, I think any geared out healer can solo heal most x1 instances easily if they know their class, and the group/tank are decently geared and skilled. As far as raids go, there are quite a few fights with high spike damage which wards help mitigate, so Shaman's are going to be needed until the 'nerf bats' start hitting raid bosses harder.
DPS wise, I'd say a good mystic can out-dps a good warden, simply because they get more DPS buffs than we do (Wardens only really get DPS through AAs). Healing wise, it's apples to oranges. Shamen are always going to be up there on heal output because wards go first. Wardens are top when it comes to raw HPS output, but the vast majority of it is wasted. But those wards are still very important for raids; regular instance wise, just about any priest class that is decently geared and well played should be able to solo heal the instances (assuming the tank is similarly decent geared and decent played). I have yet to see where a warden is more in demand for raid than a shaman, though. My guild tyically runs 3-4 shamen and 1-2 (very rarely 3) druids. When it comes to the mean stuff, wards are just tough to substitute.
Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote: What DPS buffs to mystics not get from AAs? (aside from bolster, which helps a little, but really only adds a coulpe percent to dmg output, and it not really a DPS buff) And ironically, wardens get more buffs that (can) boost their own dps than mystics do (wis group wide buff, ST wis buff, melee skill buff) The only buff that really gives mystics anything over a warden is stampede, and it does less than a dirge's CoB does zone wide. A mystic's pet adds a little damage too, but wardens get: * Higher auto atk multiplier * Higher DPS from their CAs * Better atk speed and DA buffs * Wis buffs (increases their wis, and therefore damage more than bolster, and those warden buffs are not temp spells) * Faster casting heal spells, allowing them to string heals in-between auto attacks and CAs easier (and proc infusion if they're out of CAs) * More melee damage procs * Infusive wrath for hybrid-dpsing * DPS and CA potency proc The main difference is mystics' CAs tend to do 1.2k dps on the high end (with their primary CAs doing about 1.2k, 1.1k, 1k, then 500 or less for the rest), while warden get infusion + procs on top of their CAs which do 1.5-2k dps on the high end, with procs adding 1-2k from primal instincts, 1.5-2k from dps stance proc, and tons of thornskin dps if their up close on a mob that is hitting them back. If you check out parses for Mystics versus parses for Wardens, you can see clear differences mystics can hit 20-25k dps a good bit with victorious concerto and/or stampede up, but wardens can easily do more that that if their using a comparable weapon with comparable buffs. And even more important, is that wardens can keep up massive dps while mystics tend to spike a lot, still not passing the dps of wardens (often)... Barx@Antonia Bayle wrote: Yeah, when 1 shotting is a problem, wards come in very handy, otherwise wardens' massive HoTs take the cake.
