With the right equipment, they are pretty similar. And you guys have the hawk..its supposed to be fixed and be teh awesomesss!
I'm sure an assassin would say that, but the truth is; assassins always stay on top of our DPS regardless of gear - I've seen assassins with crap for gear smoke tricked out rangers without even mashing CA's hard. It's a combination of the fact that their CA's do so much damage along with having very fast casting timers. Ranger CA's = worthless | Long casting times, low damage: just take a look at stream shot, rofl, what a joke, who even uses that, it's worthless. You can get better DPS with a level 30 bow than you can with Stream. It just seems like we got the window licker of devs when they created ranger CA's. I truely believe, if enough of us complain and keep hounding Sony that rangers need some fixing, something will be done. With the exception of a few people (probably lazy and don't really care and like being middle of the parse so they can go afk without anyone knowing), Rangers need some MAJOR MAJOR upgrades on their CA's. I say we all start some sort of protest of some kind; something that will get the attention of the brass, until they agree to release some tweaks in the next update. I think it's very possible that they're aware some people think there is a problem with rangers, but, never TRUELY have taken a look or payed it much mind. Let's get someone to SERIOUSLY take a look at what we're complaining about. If Sony can't see the problem, let's show it to them. I'm sick of just sucking it up and hoping they do something eventually. Let's do something about it instead of complaining on these forums that the devs probably don't even read! Who's with me?
And how do you propose we do that? I think the problem is that we need help from some of the really highend guilds that have rangers. I don't know if there are that many guilds that are willing to share such data with us. I ask just about every chance I get, but I don't really get responses. Second Dawn has been pretty cool about posting parses, maybe we can get them to do a little test for us. Problem is I know I'd want to see a zone wide parse (maybe DT or HOS) w/ a full raid busting thier butts to top that parse, with a good variety of dps. Problem is that might be too much to ask. All these zones that are on farm status don't always get good turn out, or ppl busting thier butts, they are gonna take who shows up cuz they are so easy now that raid setup doesn't need to be optimized at all to stroll through these zones. -Katsugen
It seems like those Rangers who parse up pretty high and say things are alright all are using auto-attacks to do it. CAs being secondary. OK, let's take that as a moment for being true. If that's the case, they need to reduce the important of bow DR, ammo, etc. and improve our CAs. I'm not sure what % of the damage is due to using a T8 rare ammo with a T7 fabled bow, but it's ridiculous that this would be the way we're supposed to match up. And needing haste+dps buffs. I'm not sure I will ever get a nice T7 bow with ANOTHER bow to get T8 rare ammo. My ranger is no longer my main. Even if it were, there's only a handful of rangers who can get both of those. Meanwhile you can be all mastered out and still suck. Awesome.
Why rediculous ?.. assassins need specific good equipment to be at the top of their game, and good groups aswell.. Grinning Dirk of Horror made my DPs jump quite a bit .. and I need to have as much haste as possible.. being stuck in the MT group I tend to parse only average.. about 900-1300. I get beat regularly by Brigands, Zerkers and the other DPs classes, including our Ranger who doesnt have her awesome bows yet. I know when she does she wil be right up on top like she usually is. When I am in a good group with good haste its a diff story, I parse right up with everyone else at 1200-1800.
I think ridiculous Sirlutt because T8 ammo summoning bows only drop in DT (one relatively rare from Tari) and the Venekor bow is also *quite* a rare drop (from the boss mob of a relatively tricky zone). These are the things that make the biggest difference to our DPS once masters etc are taken care of. GDoH, although a quite rare drop, drops off the first easy *easy* boss in a zone requiring no access - the differences should be immediately apparent. Oh, and one of our highest parsers is our guild Assassin when in our MT grp - he complains when he isn't in there because of buffing. Not sure why your MT grp doesn't allow you the same benefits. Our assassin in the MT grp is hitting upwards of 1.9k single target. Our standard MT grp is no different from the usual - Guard, Defiler, Templar, Warden, Dirge/Coercer/Assassin depending who is on. That's one of the problems trying to wade through the DPS maze - all guilds are structured differently. Our last HoS raid F ex. was a pretty reliable 18-20k raid dps through the zone. That effects the overall DPS score for each toon in the raid. Mirdo. Message Edited by Mirdo on 09-20-2006 12:09 AM
There's something about this thread that really gets to me. I've tried to resist posting anything about it, but each time i read through it, it just grates on my nerves. For starters, Akient, i dont agree with any of your posts. I also read the complaints you make re: PvP mechanics and notice your style of play and see things you should be doing, but don't to counter the problems you encounter. I would suggest part of the problem is your style of play and how you've setup your AA line. I would also suggest to fully understand ALL CA available to you and use them at the appropriate times ... we have some very nice (often neglected) CAs that can really make a big difference in any situation. Secondly, taking parses to show the problem as you describe it, wont help, because that problem doesn't exist. In every situation, soloing, grouping or raiding .. rangers are still very good to great and are still T1 DPS. I've got no doubt about that, nor do a few other high end rangers. Sure, rangers need to work harder then other classes to reach high DPS levels, and our DPS is also more subjective to our equipment and group setup then other classes .. but in my experience, rangers are almost where they need to be. We need very few, minor changes to bring us to the same level as assassins. (and even then, only the best assassin players, best equiped and those who put in 100% effort will beat an equivalent ranger) Re: AA lines, they are there to be used in a way that suits an individuals style of play. There's only 3 realisticly useful AA setups that rangers might use .. each valid. Improve our already existing strengths, overcome our existing weaknesses, or a balance between the 2. I would suggest you rethink your AA setup based on your complaints. Rangers were nerfed badly with the last expansion, but minor fixes since then brought us back to T1 a long time ago. There's simply too much evidence against your arguments to suggest rangers are still nerfed, need major changes and are not T1 DPS. Message Edited by Gerdos on 09-20-2006 01:24 PM
Theres to much evidence otherwise.. The total damages on all our CA's our similar, however our cast times are not and the only thing to outweigh this is by our offensive proc wich helps but does not ballance. Now heres the main problem - rangers start off without worrying about hate in the start of the raid progression.. Wizards, warlocks, summoners, rouges have to be consious about there hate.. A ranger does not, so the ranger is goign to parse higher because he/she is not burdend by hate.. However, once the raid continues hate nolonger becomes an issue for many of these classes.. And dps jumps ahead alot as classes like rouges, zerkers, guardians get the good 1handers.. This jumps there auto attack to 600-1000 dps depending on haste. And once you start this trend, rangers start to fall behind and maintain 1.2k that ranger was doing when he started raiding. When talking assassins though - its a diffrent story all together.. Assassins are ontop of rangers in CA damage, when our assassin shows up to raids with his adept 3-s.. and my master ones, he does more damage.. Why?? Because he has 20-30% extra time in his CA's per CA, so this comes down to a large diffrence. Now - there is one and only one unknown to put in to state otherwise.. The use of t8 ammo with the best bow, to mark at 500 int. Understand that no one can calculate the damage of t8 ammo to t7, and mark is very random. If someone can prove that t8 ammo outweighs mark and does 20-30% more dps ontop of that then all arguements towards rangers being in the shortbuss right now are moot. Also - one more thing I want to point out.. Possible fix's include ranger double attack,a boost on our proc, an extra proc, a reduction of our cast times. PS - Assassins also need there ranged arts changed to lower cast times, that is something I *strongly* put forward as well. Message Edited by LoreLady on 09-20-2006 03:20 AM
Gerdos - probably 1 out of 99 people that might know a thing or two about rangers would disagree like you have. As for AA lines, there's not many choices for a ranger, I don't think AA line choices will make any significant difference in DPS, unless you're a total moron. If you don't agree with any of my posts, you're lazy and you like being thought of as a sub par DPS class so you can turn on auto attack on raids and go AFK. All I can say is you're totally wrong Gerdos and about 99x more people agree with me than do with you. I have leveled / played almost every class to 70 - I have raided with some top guilds and killed everything that's been killed in EQ2 to date. Ranger is the one class I play that I notice a BIG difference which requires fixing. I don't want to be a broken record here, so I'll just say that I fully disagree with you and your comments suggest to me that you really don't pay much attention to what this thread is talking about.
Well - Gerdos, you may have brought a gun but I'm afraid you forgot the ammo. You think I need to learn my class better and I think the same about you. You say there's plenty of data that proves what you say - I say there's very little data in your favor and a plethora of data in mine. ----- Either way, I'll agree that we disagree and we share the same sentiment about each others knowledge on the rager as a class. Hopefully you wont be too ******** if Sony makes rangers better because of some of the feedback myself or others have given saying some things need to be fixed. Perhaps we're all wrong and you're right. Maybe you're just so uber at EQ2 that you're the only one that's figured out how to play a ranger and we all complain because we've been playing all this time and just can't figure it out.... that must be it...
Girdeo's does have a point, where assassins as they stand at the top end are on there own at the top.. In the data I have seen from parsings on the boards/disso's parsings (theres alot of them out there ).. Is top wizards do 1.6k, top rangers do 1.4k-1.5k - top brigands/swash's do 1.5k, top summoners do 1.4k-1.8k, top assassins do 1.6k-1.8k. My own personal stance - is things are still rather flawed requiring our class to have two of the rarest items to be onpar with everyone else, and our CA's are still very imballanced to assassins.. However, no ranger out there is useless.. Unless they nolonger have arms and are button mashing with there final tooth. (now theres a good visual for ya).
I'm not even going to bother writing out my thoughts on the subject (which has been left behind by now), but I gotta say that posts like this are childish and pathetic. You really seem to want people to agree with you, but you're shooting yourself in the foot by being so snide and immature - even those who might see your point aren't likely to say so b/c they don't want to associate with this kind of behavior. In a relatively short time, Gerdos has contributed an immense amount of information and counsel to help other rangers on this forum. You might want to concentrate on offering something more constructive than name-calling when faced with a minor disagreement.
If you bother to look at the first reply that was left by Gerdos you'll see that he initiated the sarcasm. I don't consider personal insults "constructive" in any way. It does kind of piss me off I admit when I am trying to do something positive for the class in general and someone comes along and tries to contradict a problem people have been posting about for a while now. So perhaps I may have sunk myself to his level on the sarcasm and rudeness. Gerdos opened his first comment with "this thread gets to me" and saying I don't know how to play my class, well who wouldn't react like that if you believe in what you're talking about. Anyhow, this thread was created to hopefully open an eye for some improvements to be made to the ranger CA line. I don't see why I ranger would post here to prevent that from happening (unless it's not a ranger at all). Message Edited by Akient on 09-21-2006 07:36 AM
well, i ve learned long ago that my opinion matters not at all for Sony or Devs, i dont care to make childish or whining posts as they will get me nowhere... i KNOW i play my ranger to the limits and i KNOW it is not where it has to be... modifications to be made can differ from one to another depending on the playing style... been playing ranger in various games for more than 10 years and noone can make me betray to an assassin... i emotionally am in love with being called as Ranger... what i am trying to say is i am trying to play my ranger as best as i can, am i furious? yes... can i do something about it? no as noone on the other end is listening... so people's attitude is more or less the same on both ends... both parties (Devs and complaining Rangers) are pretty sure that they are right and dont even listen to the other end... so where does this leave me? as i say i play the ranger as best as i can, as long as i am having fun with my friÅŸends in game... and when (will eventually happen) someone comes up with a better game with better understanding on CLASS MECHANICS (not game mechanics) i ll move into that... you should no way let a game (fictious) that you pay for, cloud your manners and act like someone you are NOT... this is a game, you dont like it then dont pay for it...
Imlach - Good post and I agree with you on a lot of it. I simply still have faith that Sony will eventually listen to one of these posts and consider making some changes. Even if small changes are made, at least it would be something. Did I expect to have something done because of this post?: Not really, just hoped. Do I think something will be done?: yes, provided enough rangers come forward and voice their concerns with our CA line. Sony can easily ignore a handfull of the vocal few, but ignoring all the rangers out there would be much more difficult. If it's this post or the next one someone creates about this same thing, I think eventually it will catch the eye of a dev or someone that can do something out it. Once that happens, this all will have been worth it. Do I enjoy playing my ranger?: Sure I do, I just wish I could provide a bit more benefit to my guild and think by all means I should be able to. My whole point in all this is that I think the majority agrees that rangers have been short changed which makes them probably the least desired class for end game guild recruitment. For those of us that really enjoy playing a ranger and refuse to betray over as as assassin, the least we can do is try to make things change. I didn't expect it to be easy but if I did nothing, I'd just be another one of those "turn on auto attack and AFK; my class is fine" type of people, which I also refuse to be.
i truly see your point on the subject, the thing is i ve seen so many good players posting constructive comments on fixing us containing hard evidence data, i ve seen people like Jay who always have a positive manner but think more or less like me... they are all at least good players and posters whom i read their ideas respectfully... i do not post alot... nor i have their ability to make myself so clear... and only answer the SoE brilliant minds can come up with was "the rangers are where we want them to be... period..." so i ve decided that we should not provide them with more tools for them to treat us like 6 yrs old [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] kids... for me they made their point quite clear on the subject... we are where they want us to be... (oh bdw, for pitys sake please do NOT call any server an RP server for EQ2 since all that matters is your handicapped game mechanics)
I re-read Gerdos' first post as you requested in your PM to me. I think you're reading WAY more into it than was ever intended. I see no personal insults and no sarcasm. He does say that the topic of the thread bothers him, b/c he has a different opinion than you do; you took that as being "contradictory and unconstructive." He also mentions that a lot of ppl neglect some of our CAs; you took that as "personal insults" and "sarcasm." Frankly, I suggest that *you* go re-read his first post, and then re-read your subsequent responses. FWIW, I don't even know Gerdos and we aren't close friends. We've never said a word to each other outside these forums. So if I'm biased, as you accused in the PM, it's a bias toward someone who has made useful contributions to the ranger community rather than a bias toward someone I know personally. If Gerdos had taken the same attitude toward you with the same lack of provocation, I'd have said the same thing to him instead. I'm done playing the Daddy (as you called it) here. Usually I keep my mouth shut when it comes to petty squabbles b/w people here, but your whole tone and approach prompted me to voice my opinion. Yes, your opinion is a valid one, as much so as anyone else's, including Gerdos' or mine, but IMO you're beating a dead horse on this topic. We've talked this issue to death for months now, and I don't see any new points or information in this thread. I'm sorry if you're offended that we didn't all rally to your cause (or that some people disagreed with your opinion), but many of us have been in the trenches for a long time already. Message Edited by Jay42 on 09-21-2006 12:34 PM
** DISCLAIMER ** - do not read if you are looking for useful information btw, Jay, i love you /hugz :smileytongue:
