Analysis of Mit/Avoid for different Sub-Classes Write up

ARCHIVED-H3llburner · Oct 9, 2005

" Monks, Bruisers, Paladins all have distinct second roles that makes them desirable when not tanking. Guardians can only tank. Don't know enough about Shadowknights and Berserkers post combat change to make an observation. "
Oh yeah the great paladin art of set Siphon hate thru amends and then fall asleep so whoever is tanking has to worry less about button mashing agro stealers. Atm wards do not stack, heals really are soso and if you have any kind of decent templar in a group the LOH line might be the only one you ever use every 15 minutes or so if the crap hits the fan. Stuns just got nerfed on epics, our res is a Joke with its touch range and 60 second recast.
Im sorry I fully support the Guardians that they made the plate class's of far lesser utility then they were Pre combat changes, and the brawlers and monks are by far over powered. I have seen monks steal agro from all plate tank types simply with their dominating DPS, the same way other dps class's can and do.
Want a tank gor a XP group ? Bruiser, Monk then Mage pet, plate class only if your desperate or their your really good friends and you take pitty on them.

ARCHIVED-Khore · Oct 13, 2005

Fix mitigation and I would be happy, how are people supposed to be able to tank mobs that autoattack for 7k (tree in silcent city), two normal hits and any tank is down, until mitigation actually works, and now that epics cannot be stunned, these mobs won't be going anywhere.
Also btw grats on changing everyone's roles once again, the mass exodus of people should probably be a clue that you guys are doing everything wrong right now. It is sad when the EQ 1 expansion outsells the EQ 2 expansion for the week.

ARCHIVED-Kikenata · Oct 18, 2005

“Moorgard wrote:

“Noah wrote:

Avoidance gets very "iffy" when a mob is MUCH HIGHER lvl than you. For example, a brawler will do great vs an epic mob that cons green, blue, even a debuffed white/yellow. When you step into Orange and red lvls of raid mobs... avoidance is basically out the window and mitigation steps in. Now if a mob is hitting for poison/disease etc etc... perhaps this is where the crusader/sk steps in. I know in exp situations in LT ... SKs are WAY better at tanking zombies than I. Why? Because of the innate resistance they get from selfbuffs.

What usually happens is the MT group is shuffled around to get the guilds MT the resistances needed to tank mobs that hit for "unusual damage". So, either keep collecting all that +disease/poison/mental gear and/or buff up that wis if you want to be a primary tank in ALL situation.”

Those are solid observations.

I've chatted with Thanous about his efforts with these threads. It's an honest attempt to provide an overall perspective, but it's pretty much an impossible task to come up with a single conclusion that ranks every subclass definitively. Simply put, tanking is situational; some of the points Noah makes above help illustrate why.

If you were to parse a thousand fights each of a guardian, a bruiser, and a paladin of the same level and comparable gear tanking a yellow ^^^ heroic fighter mob, you'd have good data on how those classes compare tanking that exact encounter at that level. However, such a test wouldn't show how those classes compare tanking a green x4 caster mob, or an orange x2 priest mob, or three blue ^ heroic scout mobs. Short of parsing every possible encounter, the most you can do is isolate player variables; there are just way too many possible encounter variables to isolate them easily.

Before LU13, guardians could say they were the best tank in pretty much every situation. That is no longer true, but neither is it true that they always tank below other classes. There simply is no overall ranking of who tanks best, because it is intentionally situational. There is no "tanking index" that can provide a valid result, and focusing on only two numbers (avoidance and mitigation) won't give you an accurate assessment of the big picture. In fact, it would be quite misleading.

In groups, most people agree that any fighter can tank well. Player skill becomes the determining factor in who is "best," and if you ask me that's how it should be. But even so, there are simply some situations were certain tanks have a chance to excel, and that is completely intentional.

Crusaders do have lower physical avoidance, but they have the highest resists to arcane damage types. Against caster mobs, crusaders have an inherent advantage that most people tend to leave out of their parsing. Again, comparing just physical avoidance and mitigation is far from the only way to judge a tank.

Brawlers do exceptionally well tanking single-target encounters that do physical damage. They have less tools to manage multiple mobs at once, however. Obviously they have a lot of self-oriented utility, but abilities like feign death and instill doubt have very limited use in most groups or raids. Their higher damage counters their disadvantages at holding aggro from multiple targets.

Warriors have the most tools to grab multiple streams of aggro and safely lock them down. This in turn allows other members of the group more freedom to unload damage (especially AoEs) that they might have to manage more carefully with another type of tank. Guardians in particular have the most tools to generate pure hate that gets reliably applied across entire encounters.

The whole avoidance vs. mitigation argument will never have a resolution. It was around way before LU13 and will still be debated long after. There is no way to say X mitigation always equals Y avoidance in every situation because there are so many other factors involved. For example, epic targets at level 50 and above generally have a +to hit mod that helps them overcome player avoidance. Color con has an even more tangible effect. Obviously the more you depend on avoidance, the more these factors affect you.

Considering how the different fighters are playing out so far, we're pretty happy with where tanking is right now. I wouldn't expect sweeping changes to any particular class as to how they tank, though of course all abilities are subject to adjustments and tweaking.

This is not to say that everything is perfect or that nothing will change. Some fighters are a bit weak in damage output at lower levels, so we'll be adding an offensive stance that should help early in the game. And as I've noted elsewhere, crusaders need the ability to put something in their ranged slot to balance out stats a bit more. We'll keep watching all the classes and will make changes where they are needed. But keep in mind that "need" is based far more on in-game results than on numbers tabulated in any spreadsheet.”

I have to call BS on the response. I have to. It does not address the more pressing issue and flavour of the thread. Guardians DO NOT have the same play ability they had before the combat changes.

As far as utility, it is non - existent. All sub-classes provide a group buff in one form or another. The Guardian does not perform on par with other fighter sub-classes.

The intent to make sub-classes seperate but equal was not successful and must be changed to make the Guardian sub-class a viable option. Everyone has a chance to start from the beginning with a character they feel would be more play-able. But having spent many, many, many months on the development of a character makes this option equivlent to leaving the game for many, if not most, players.

To write about the effectiveness of a Guardian in raid and full group environments is to say that THAT is their only purpose. Even if that was not the intent, Steve is pointing out that the significant Guardian combat arts are meant for group and/or raid environments. Why must this be so when the other fighter sub-classes have utility specifically for small-group and solo encounters? Espcially utility versus a single mob be it heroic or otherwise.

It should not be the case where Master combat arts are needed and Legendary or higher equipment is needed to be effective in game for group encounters or lower all of the time. Of course it helps the Guardian to become more effective versus the mobs and is a component in game for a reason. But unless the player goal is to be involved in raiding the Adept 1s dropped from heroic mobs and regular handcrafted armor should be the effective tools used against group mobs. This isn't the case to me and only the highest tier equipment shows any significant gain in effectiveness for the Guardian in a group against group mobs. I mention this because I feel it ties in with the rest of the changes affecting the Guardian sub-class since LU#13.

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Analysis of Mit/Avoid for different Sub-Classes Write up

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