All this time and Sniper's Shot still sucks?

ARCHIVED-billchivers · Jun 30, 2009

What I was trying to prove to you is that if you lower the cast time of sniper, you will raise the DPS of that art. Period. Regardless of any other factors. But you just dont seem to be getting that point.

This is just semantics. Instantaneous DPS versus the average value. If you plot a graph of total damage dealt during a long encounter, then yes, lowering sniper from 4 to 1 seconds would make that tiny part of the graph 4 times steeper. But the overall change to the height of the graph over 10 minutes will be insignifigant.
Lets say you squeeze out a couple of CA's for 5k. Even assuming that you won't end up waiting for them to refresh at some point anyway....
if you parse e.g. 10k dps then after 10 mins of combat you'll have done 6 million dps. Its not even 1/10th of a percent to your total damage output.
Course, if you want to get a good parse fighting a greenV then it'll help a lot.....

ARCHIVED-Ranja · Jun 30, 2009

Veritan@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“
What I was trying to prove to you is that if you lower the cast time of sniper, you will raise the DPS of that art. Period. Regardless of any other factors. But you just dont seem to be getting that point.

This is just semantics. Instantaneous DPS versus the average value. If you plot a graph of total damage dealt during a long encounter, then yes, lowering sniper from 4 to 1 seconds would make that tiny part of the graph 4 times steeper. But the overall change to the height of the graph over 10 minutes will be insignifigant.
Lets say you squeeze out a couple of CA's for 5k. Even assuming that you won't end up waiting for them to refresh at some point anyway....
if you parse e.g. 10k dps then after 10 mins of combat you'll have done 6 million dps. Its not even 1/10th of a percent to your total damage output.
Course, if you want to get a good parse fighting a greenV then it'll help a lot.....”

You call it semantics - I call it understanding the mechanics of DPS and how to get the most DPS out of your character at any given moment in time.

ARCHIVED-kartikeya · Jun 30, 2009

As someone who has done end game raiding (Anashti, Avatars) I can say that we do not stack up against assassins at all. However, I can also say that assassins have a load of competition too. The DPS scale for classes is and has been, but especially in TSO, completely on its ear. And if a ranger doesn't have a perfect group, as they often don't, their DPS will suffer massively. (like with any class really, but perhaps more). Our assassin is very well geared and puts out great numbers, but the swashy beats him (this may be a matter of positioning. A lot of TSO fights are absolute hell on positioning, and for an assassin that'd be a total PITA)
Now, I don't have any Avatar loot and the folks I raid with are typically better geared, and I've seen parses from rangers with Avatar loot and it improves significantly once you start getting that. Still not, from what I've seen, to the point where you're actually pulling your DPS weight in comparison to other classes with the same gear, but much more respectable.
I don't tend to top the parse even in pure ranged fights. What rangers do shine at in TSO is we can still be DPSing even when we're getting flung all over the place, and it's pretty steady DPS rather than lots of fast spikes. Frankly, I would be perfectly fine with this if I had something else to offer the raid, because I am sick to death of the DPS competition. The problem is that I don't, and the people who do can out-DPS me. My raid group is awesome, but I can't help but feel that I'd like to offer them more than what I'm capable.

ARCHIVED-Ranja · Jun 30, 2009

kartikeya wrote:

“As someone who has done end game raiding (Anashti, Avatars) I can say that we do not stack up against assassins at all. However, I can also say that assassins have a load of competition too. The DPS scale for classes is and has been, but especially in TSO, completely on its ear. And if a ranger doesn't have a perfect group, as they often don't, their DPS will suffer massively. (like with any class really, but perhaps more). Our assassin is very well geared and puts out great numbers, but the swashy beats him (this may be a matter of positioning. A lot of TSO fights are absolute hell on positioning, and for an assassin that'd be a total PITA)
Now, I don't have any Avatar loot and the folks I raid with are typically better geared, and I've seen parses from rangers with Avatar loot and it improves significantly once you start getting that. Still not, from what I've seen, to the point where you're actually pulling your DPS weight in comparison to other classes with the same gear, but much more respectable.
I don't tend to top the parse even in pure ranged fights. What rangers do shine at in TSO is we can still be DPSing even when we're getting flung all over the place, and it's pretty steady DPS rather than lots of fast spikes. Frankly, I would be perfectly fine with this if I had something else to offer the raid, because I am sick to death of the DPS competition. The problem is that I don't, and the people who do can out-DPS me. My raid group is awesome, but I can't help but feel that I'd like to offer them more than what I'm capable.”

/agree. But at the end of the night raiding, I bet you are 1,2 or 3 on the ZW.

ARCHIVED-Gaige · Jun 30, 2009

kartikeya wrote:

“As someone who has done end game raiding (Anashti, Avatars) I can say that we do not stack up against assassins at all.”

On trash.

ARCHIVED-Ranja · Jun 30, 2009

Gage wrote:

“kartikeya wrote:

“As someone who has done end game raiding (Anashti, Avatars) I can say that we do not stack up against assassins at all.”

On trash.”

yep I agree - see my above post

ARCHIVED-Zizzu · Jun 30, 2009

Ranja wrote:

“Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Ranja wrote:

“Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Ranja wrote:

“Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Ranja wrote:

“Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Webin@Befallen wrote:

“Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“For example: There is no signiicant edge if you just increase the casting timer on Sniper and just leave the recast timer the same.”

Reducing the cast time on sniper shot would let us get in an additional auto-attack, increasing our DPS. It's not a huge difference, but it's measurable. There are DPS consequences to virtually any change they might make to our class.
A race car with 7 cylinders that can drive as fast (or faster) than it's competition would dominate if it were to run on all 8 cylinders. I agree that the CA issues we're talking about here are irritating, but they have the net affect of keeping us roughly balanced with Assassins, then we shouldn't bother complaining.”

And you are assuming our auto attack hits for 100%???? Think again. Since you do not raid, then you have no idea how many times our auto attack will and can miss. I suggest you grab ACT and try it on a long named fight and see how many misses you will get from auto attack. Missing just one is huge for us. And you think increasing Sniper casting time is earthshattering??? /sigh
Our auto attack, at best, is 4 seconds if you are haste maxed. Taking Simper from 3+ seconds to 1 second is not game changing.”

Actually it would increae the DPS of the skill. DPS = damage/time. So yes by reducing the cast time of Sniper you are increase the DPS efficiency of that skill. For example (and I am using simple numbers)
400/4 sec = 100 DPS
400/1sec = 400 DPS.
So yes, lowering the cast timer of sniper shot would increase its DPS.”

And this math is under the assumption that Auto attack hits for 100% every time? It does not.
If SoE gave us 100% hit rate on auto attack, then I could care less about Sniper at all.”

No. This math has no hidden assumptions. Look at the math. It does not even factor in Auto-attack. Lowering the casting time on Sniper will increase the DPS. Period.”

Your formula is based on per attack. Right? Increasing the cast time on Sniper would not increase it's dps since the recast timer is still the same. With that said, the only extra dps gain from taking the cast time from 4 seconds to 1 is basically what can be done with the 3 extra seconds gain within the recasting time (which is 15 minutes or 10 if you have the AA line).
So, these 3 seconds gain within a 15/10 minute period is still small. A couple quick CAs can be fired off within that time. That's about it. A huge dps difference? I really don't think so.”

Sorry man - you just are not getting it. I am talking about DPS efficiency of a spell on the assumption that you want to do the max damage in the shortest amount of time. This does not take into account recast.
To work out the DPS Efficiency value of each of your spells, you need to first work out the average total damage that the CA deals (including any ticks if it has a duration component). Then divide this number by the casting time + recovery time that you have for that CA - the recovery time is 0.5s for each of your spells. You then need to order your CAs by the resulting number, so that when you come to cycling your CAs, you are always casting the highest available spell in the list.
Looking at the above you get: (MinDamage +MaxDamage)/2 = Average hit
DPS Efficiency = AverageHit/Cast Time + Recovery Time (which is .5 secs for all CAs).
Wow, if I lower the Cast Time - look I increase the DPS Efficiency.
If you wanted to take into accounts crits remember When a combat art crits its damage range goes from max+1 to max*(1,3+crit mod).
Look at it this way. If Snipers takes 1 second to cast, I can also cast 2 other CAs before my auto-attack goes off, this also results in a net increase in DPS.
I am not sure how to explain it any more clearer.”

Didn't I just stated that?? Please tell me you think the extra 2 CAs within a 15/10 minute period is huge dps bump? And yes, recast time is important here. Is there a small increase in dps? Sure. Is it game changing? No.
You don't have spew formulas to me. The bottom line still comes out the same: 2 extra CAs within a 10 minute recast timer is not that big of a dps. It amounts to one engagement where a ranger will slightly increase his dps out by the measure of 2 CAs.”

What I was trying to prove to you is that if you lower the cast time of sniper, you will raise the DPS of that art. Period. Regardless of any other factors. But you just dont seem to be getting that point.”

I understand better than you think actually.
I understand what you saying that the added 3 seconds would increase dps in combat session. I never disputed that.
My compliant is assassins have a .37 second CA while we are stuck with a 4.0 CA (which can be knock down a little with AA/mods). In the long run, are we going to start spiking like assassins if we lower Sniper a couple seconds? I doubt it.
And yes, we do not stack well agianst assassins in trash fights. However, longer named fights is our bread and butter.

ARCHIVED-Ranja · Jun 30, 2009

Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Ranja wrote:

“Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Ranja wrote:

“Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Ranja wrote:

“Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Ranja wrote:

“Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“Webin@Befallen wrote:

“Zizzu@Antonia Bayle wrote:

“For example: There is no signiicant edge if you just increase the casting timer on Sniper and just leave the recast timer the same.”

Reducing the cast time on sniper shot would let us get in an additional auto-attack, increasing our DPS. It's not a huge difference, but it's measurable. There are DPS consequences to virtually any change they might make to our class.
A race car with 7 cylinders that can drive as fast (or faster) than it's competition would dominate if it were to run on all 8 cylinders. I agree that the CA issues we're talking about here are irritating, but they have the net affect of keeping us roughly balanced with Assassins, then we shouldn't bother complaining.”

And you are assuming our auto attack hits for 100%???? Think again. Since you do not raid, then you have no idea how many times our auto attack will and can miss. I suggest you grab ACT and try it on a long named fight and see how many misses you will get from auto attack. Missing just one is huge for us. And you think increasing Sniper casting time is earthshattering??? /sigh
Our auto attack, at best, is 4 seconds if you are haste maxed. Taking Simper from 3+ seconds to 1 second is not game changing.”

Actually it would increae the DPS of the skill. DPS = damage/time. So yes by reducing the cast time of Sniper you are increase the DPS efficiency of that skill. For example (and I am using simple numbers)
400/4 sec = 100 DPS
400/1sec = 400 DPS.
So yes, lowering the cast timer of sniper shot would increase its DPS.”

And this math is under the assumption that Auto attack hits for 100% every time? It does not.
If SoE gave us 100% hit rate on auto attack, then I could care less about Sniper at all.”

No. This math has no hidden assumptions. Look at the math. It does not even factor in Auto-attack. Lowering the casting time on Sniper will increase the DPS. Period.”

Your formula is based on per attack. Right? Increasing the cast time on Sniper would not increase it's dps since the recast timer is still the same. With that said, the only extra dps gain from taking the cast time from 4 seconds to 1 is basically what can be done with the 3 extra seconds gain within the recasting time (which is 15 minutes or 10 if you have the AA line).
So, these 3 seconds gain within a 15/10 minute period is still small. A couple quick CAs can be fired off within that time. That's about it. A huge dps difference? I really don't think so.”

Sorry man - you just are not getting it. I am talking about DPS efficiency of a spell on the assumption that you want to do the max damage in the shortest amount of time. This does not take into account recast.
To work out the DPS Efficiency value of each of your spells, you need to first work out the average total damage that the CA deals (including any ticks if it has a duration component). Then divide this number by the casting time + recovery time that you have for that CA - the recovery time is 0.5s for each of your spells. You then need to order your CAs by the resulting number, so that when you come to cycling your CAs, you are always casting the highest available spell in the list.
Looking at the above you get: (MinDamage +MaxDamage)/2 = Average hit
DPS Efficiency = AverageHit/Cast Time + Recovery Time (which is .5 secs for all CAs).
Wow, if I lower the Cast Time - look I increase the DPS Efficiency.
If you wanted to take into accounts crits remember When a combat art crits its damage range goes from max+1 to max*(1,3+crit mod).
Look at it this way. If Snipers takes 1 second to cast, I can also cast 2 other CAs before my auto-attack goes off, this also results in a net increase in DPS.
I am not sure how to explain it any more clearer.”

Didn't I just stated that?? Please tell me you think the extra 2 CAs within a 15/10 minute period is huge dps bump? And yes, recast time is important here. Is there a small increase in dps? Sure. Is it game changing? No.
You don't have spew formulas to me. The bottom line still comes out the same: 2 extra CAs within a 10 minute recast timer is not that big of a dps. It amounts to one engagement where a ranger will slightly increase his dps out by the measure of 2 CAs.”

What I was trying to prove to you is that if you lower the cast time of sniper, you will raise the DPS of that art. Period. Regardless of any other factors. But you just dont seem to be getting that point.”

I understand better than you think actually.
I understand what you saying that the added 3 seconds would increase dps in combat session. I never disputed that.
My compliant is assassins have a .37 second CA while we are stuck with a 4.0 CA (which can be knock down a little with AA/mods). In the long run, are we going to start spiking like assassins if we lower Sniper a couple seconds? I doubt it.
And yes, we do not stack well agianst assassins in trash fights. However, longer named fights is our bread and butter.”

fair enough

ARCHIVED-kartikeya · Jun 30, 2009

Ranja wrote:

“kartikeya wrote:

“As someone who has done end game raiding (Anashti, Avatars) I can say that we do not stack up against assassins at all. However, I can also say that assassins have a load of competition too. The DPS scale for classes is and has been, but especially in TSO, completely on its ear. And if a ranger doesn't have a perfect group, as they often don't, their DPS will suffer massively. (like with any class really, but perhaps more). Our assassin is very well geared and puts out great numbers, but the swashy beats him (this may be a matter of positioning. A lot of TSO fights are absolute hell on positioning, and for an assassin that'd be a total PITA)
Now, I don't have any Avatar loot and the folks I raid with are typically better geared, and I've seen parses from rangers with Avatar loot and it improves significantly once you start getting that. Still not, from what I've seen, to the point where you're actually pulling your DPS weight in comparison to other classes with the same gear, but much more respectable.
I don't tend to top the parse even in pure ranged fights. What rangers do shine at in TSO is we can still be DPSing even when we're getting flung all over the place, and it's pretty steady DPS rather than lots of fast spikes. Frankly, I would be perfectly fine with this if I had something else to offer the raid, because I am sick to death of the DPS competition. The problem is that I don't, and the people who do can out-DPS me. My raid group is awesome, but I can't help but feel that I'd like to offer them more than what I'm capable.”

/agree. But at the end of the night raiding, I bet you are 1,2 or 3 on the ZW.”

If only. I'm usually about 5-6. It depends on the zone, but in general.

ARCHIVED-kittenkaboodle · Jun 30, 2009

Sniper shot and coverage are both good CA's you just need to learn to use them right instead of just hating them because assassins get a better CA. Coverage + Sniper shot + Mythical = constistant 50k+ hits. Works for me!

Rangers require a tad bit more gear then your average scout. Your ranger doesnt have to be at the top of the parse everytime for you to still be doing good dps.

Stream of arrows is the only truly worthless CA but thats a dead horse...it will be fixed whenever and rangers dont really need it to put out good numbers.

ARCHIVED-Dirty Jack Rackham · Jun 30, 2009

Good luck getting Coverage to work. I have had terrible luck with it. Just too many nit picky things can render it useless. Not even worth my time trying to use it when I can get two other CAs off in the time it takes to attempt to use Coverage.

ARCHIVED-kartikeya · Jul 1, 2009

"Good numbers" is very relative. I can go on a raid with folks who are lesser geared and fighting easier mobs, and sure then, I'll top the parse or come very close to it, and I'll probably be doing less than I would be with my regular raid alliance. Whereas with this regular raid alliance, while I'm generally doing much more DPS thanks to their buffs and gear, I'll be far, far lower on the parse list because everyone else is doing so much more.

ARCHIVED-kittenkaboodle · Jul 1, 2009

Dirty Jack Rackham wrote:

“Good luck getting Coverage to work. I have had terrible luck with it. Just too many nit picky things can render it useless. Not even worth my time trying to use it when I can get two other CAs off in the time it takes to attempt to use Coverage.”

It works pretty much everytime i use it, and if it doesnt its easy to figure out why =/

ARCHIVED-Dirty Jack Rackham · Jul 1, 2009

kittenkaboodle wrote:

“Dirty Jack Rackham wrote:

“Good luck getting Coverage to work. I have had terrible luck with it. Just too many nit picky things can render it useless. Not even worth my time trying to use it when I can get two other CAs off in the time it takes to attempt to use Coverage.”

It works pretty much everytime i use it, and if it doesnt its easy to figure out why =/”

Glad someone can make some use out of that piece of **** combat ability. I can figure out why too. Either I'm too close, there are too many other mobs, the tank repositions the mob, the moon entered the constellation of Cancer 10 seconds after combat began. Okay, fine. I'll concede the point. It's MOSTLY useless.

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