Disparity between casual and hard core

it's not punishing if you don't have that is the first place.

sure as a veteran now u see your advantages over a newbie, so taking it away would punish you, but if it wasn't there, would you think about it.

it's not about asking same benefits, it's about keeping a gap that is manageable. Veteran players here always talk about how they want to stay OP and above the returning players, how HC gamers should be rewarded for clearing HKC and ossuary so fast (plus by doing that they forbid weaker ones to close the gap, because they have no mobs to kill or just take more time to kill one and the OP veteran runs trhough and clears the room). the OP never talked about casuals and returning players to be on par with veterans or HC farmers ... just that the gap shouldn't be that wide.

and u talk about EQ2 not wanting to be too easy ... but by adding Tithe, they made the game easy for some HC gamers. anyway .. top raiding guild members always had been able to solo heroic zones at a certain point of time. With raid gear, avatar gear and so on.
And for DBG to keep the game relevant for those players, they have to make it harder, and casuals have a harder time grouping.

as I said, during RoK .. I was able after a year of absence to get back on track, but I was no casual. and did it hurt anybody ? NOPE. because I could group, I could help, I could raid, I could enjoy the game the way I wanted and I could give back the help that was given to me.
here, returning players take AGES to be able to do heroic content.
we have lots of new players in the guild, but nobody can do heroic content, because nobody is ready for it. And, as I was when I got back, I'm just scared to group and be a dead weight to the group. And how this .... all those returning players not being able to keep up with the stats of the game ... help the game ??? explain me ?

Veteran players .. right now most of you, when you talk about how stronger you are, it's selfish, you only talk about your desires to be stronger. But here I try to see things as a whole. when we have 30 people connected in the guild, many 100 but too few being able to group is a problem. I don't need ubber people, just people who can manage to heal and tank and dps enough to be relevant in groups. I did level up an alt tank and a healer plus my illu main so that I could help guildies depending on their needs (and since I'm a bruiser and guildies are nice, I could need leather loot even when playing my illu).
and in a raid guild, there are too few good tanks. We also have the issue with expert zones now, got dps, got healers, got supports ... but only got 3 tanks with the stats needed for expert. because other tanks struggle.

so tell me, how does it helps the game to see so many people struggle, so many people scared to group for heroics, or just starting them but not being able to finish them, just so that veterans (who are leaving right now coz fed up with game) are happy coz they are OP ... really .. explain me.

Market is saturated and have so much space for given gender of game
EQ1 serve purpose to please hard cores. It have a lot of grind (to get you gazillion AA or you fall far behind main curve) it have massive content (most important raiding content) - heavy scripted and very time consuming - EQ2 can't and shouldn't compete with that it been always geared toward pleasing casual segment of players who want occasionally (but not occupationally!) raid with much smaller numbers (compare to EQ1).
Yes there was always differentiation between veterans and new comers but was no rift that can't be breached like it now.
No matter how you slice it or dice it
Person with Epic 2.0 and Ascend 10 is completely different type of player compare to one who don't have it - this gap is equal 89 days of every day logging it AND doing nothing but grinding old grey content OR outdated content
Please don't mix the way EQ1 kept previous x-packs afloat and how it do now EQ2
EQ1 loot from previous x-packs remained relevant to current xpack plus exp gain was relevant as well so old x-pack remained as viable instrument of progression (mostly for newcomers! while old crowd already consumed that content and moved on)
EQ2 always rend previous x-pack obsolete. What done in this x-pack artificially we all be forced to do old grey content which carry otherwise no progression. Also this x-pack effectively killed alts because no way in hell someone will go trough same pain of getting Epic 2.0 with alt UNLESS some sort of ER will be introduced AND some shortcut of getting at least 1 ascending class to 10 at fast pace

The other day I was asked to help a PuG do an AoM raid boss that they were close to killing (just one group and not full) but they couldn't quite down it. I am an AoE DPS SK so my single target dps, in theory, isn't very good. However, I am also lvl 7 Etherialist. So I went and used one ability on the boss and with others fighting it died fast and spawned another boss. So we decided to take it down. My EA did a LOT of damage, leaving them stunned by my damage I had done (I had told them I had a few tricks left...) so I can see, as DoomDrake and others have said about the difference between the epic 2.0 and ascension 10 raiders compared to us casual is huge if my 21 tithe potency, 15k potency, lvl 7 etherials shocked other casuals about how much damage I did.

Yes that what I am talking all along - now imagine you would at your Ascending 10, have rising tide at 100% and all DPS ascending skills at Master-GM level - you ALONG would single shot that boss

I do understand what is meant by the power differences between those that have devoted more time than someone like a new or returning player. I just don't see that as being a problem until the point that those at the high end can no longer find others on that same level to group with. Everyone else below that level should have plenty of people to play with since they haven't crossed that threshold yet. And same for them. Even then, alts can ensure everyone has someone to play with. Its not idea but I don't see a solution without giving something to those that haven't worked for it or take away from those that have. Its the nature of these type games. Longer play time is always going to outpower shorter play time. That's not a bad thing that needs micromanaging without further damaging the game. So far, it doesn't seem to be the more powerful players not finding groups but those that can't play as often wanting what those longer playtime players have. I don't mean that as a slight. I'm behind that power curve too. In my case, I understand that if I want that power, I'm going to have to earn it.

As for the game being easy, this is one type of example. The biggest to me is how a player can do less that 30 quests in an area and out level that area. So experience seems obviously too high. On my toons, I don't bother with gear since I'm outleveling content so fast. Shortcuts is another. Specifically the need to be keyed for levels. Which makes sense as by the time you finish some key quests, you're fighting greens in the areas you're keying for. I figure all of this is done to get players to the content that is "current" as fast as possible. Sure, having quest NPCs makes things easier but to a big degree. I do appreciate the devs touching back on the days where that wasn't so apparent but I don't think that makes much of difference.

Its the artificial push through levels I take issue with. So just like I don't see the need to push players through their levels so quickly, I don't see the need to push them to a certain power level so quickly. Especially when down the road, a player that takes a break away from the game will again need that power level push to be equal to those that don't take a break. I just don't see a method of keeping a constant player with player that doesn't play which is really where the issue seems to be. A player that hasn't played for some time (or often) just doesn't have a mechanism to be on par with players that don't take breaks. Nothing I've seen has justified taking the step that not playing the game is as beneficial as playing the game. It seems a terrible step to take when they've already taken so many in that direction.

no, it's just playing at the right time, during ToT, when Tithe was implemented

if you've left during ToT but game back for KA, you're in a worst shape than a guy who started during AoM or ToT, though u played more.

Its not just about disparity of DPS (tankage or healing)
Look while I am not mind once in while to carry group on my DPS along for me is zero fun spend like 30+ minutes for single heroic zone run with PUG. I'd rather group with other folks or guild mates whom I know we can knock that zone under 10 minutes mark or do expert heroic for some goodies. Again group "could" technically carry 1 or even 2 person through heroic but it slow down group significantly
This gap keep growing and growing.

I'm sorry but I still don't see the issue, I mean, I get what you're saying, Earar. Not playing at one special time caused that player to miss out. But why can't he or she play with the others that missed out. That's what I missing. Obviously if they didn't play during that period and come back, there is new content for them to playthrough even though its not the newest. Then once its finished and they get through the newest content, aren't they then on level with those that didn't take a break? Since tithe becomes harder and harder to gain the higher you get, their progression is much slower than those coming up so that they may be more powerful but not to the same degree as someone starting now. Unless just one point extra in tithe does make huge differences. Which it may but if not, I'm still not seeing how it doesn't resolve itself the longer you play.

And Doom, I don't think I'm understanding your point at all, Is it you're too powerful compared to those you prefer to play with or in general? Or is it the other way around?

Regardless, I don't understand the logic of a developer designing the game so that not playing is no different than playing. If that's what they've been doing over the years then I think we see the result. You can't design around the idea of rushing players to your new expansion without making that expansion firing on all cylinders. One bad expansion loses your income for the year if you're not cultivating a subscriber base to fall back on. And then to do the same thing the next year taking the same crap shoot of what players expect that next expansion to be. And to think, most of the players they want to get with these expansions were probably at one time subscribers.

Now I'm wondering, is this the first time there was disparity between casual and hardcore players?

so you mean that players that have enough tithe should play together and the returning players together ? It's not agnostic. The content doesn't scale based on your potency. If the KA content was designed for people with 20 tithe in all 3 branches, then people with less will struggle.

casuals struggle, returning players struggle, managing to group as returning players is not an option coz even the lowest tier heroic dongeons ask for lots of dps. So u need good gear and good tithe to do anything. and it's not fun.

plus it doesn't motivate people to come back. I managed to get to a correct level of play, because I play 8 hrs a day, and I worked hard to get that, but I still only have 14 tithe in pot, 10 in crit bonus and 5 in hp while guildies have 20 everywhere. Many times I wondered if quiting wouldn't be the best solution. because 1 - the game is too fricking demanding and 2 - whatever my commitment to my toon, I can't close the gap.

so imagine with players who can't play as much as me.


as someone said, expec meant reset, players were more or less equal at the begining of a new xpac because old gear even fabled would be quicly replaced. So if u wanted to catch up .. the begining of an xpac was the best time. Not anymore.
and if the game is lacking players and .. u make a too big difference in levels .. then people can't play together anymore and it makes it even harder for everyone to do heroic content.

look at heroic r experts, not many groups running, the requirements are so high that people don't do them .. they prefer PQs.

how good is that ?

there is always a gap between casuals and HC .. obviously. Needs to be anyway. just first time it's THAT big.
and between rturning HC players.

and u need to keep your player base but u also need to lure new players or make old players come back. U always need fresh blood. because there are always people leaving. but they don't motivate people to stay

I look at it another way. I personally don't care less how my character(s) compare to anyone elses. I play to do the content I enjoy, whether it be some 0 - 99 stuff I haven't done before, or want to do again, or to play a lvl 100 through the KA content. What I don't do is grind simply to "improve" a character - that to me is work, not play.
As a result, my concern is that the disparity will present a big problem in the future as to game development - new content - will not possibly suit the huge range of character capability - and the subs/sales etc from all players are needed to fund development - and the game has now split the playerbase into separate non-compatible sections. I wouldn't buy an expansion based on requirements of filled ascension/tithe, and I wouldn't expect those who satisfy that would be interested in an expansion they could clear without effort.

I think the problem I'm having understanding this is if you have a significate portion of players who can't get to that level, why are they not grouping together to help each other progress? If there's block that is keeping players from advancing BEYOND the amount of play time, then that should be looked into. But if its due solely to amount of time played then I think that's just tough. And someone playing eight hours a day should be progressing so I don't know how some players got across the fence and some don't. I've said before, I don't care what others have over me. I just don't want the game to become even more easier to erase the differences between those that play a lot compared to those that don't. That should always result in differences.

If not, why should I subscribe to this game? What benefit is there logging in daily compared to occasionally if they do that? That's where I think its a terrible way to go since they already make so much easy to progress. I certainly think it bad game design to have all players on the same level every expansion (sorry devs). Ideally, I think a returning player (such as myself) should be right where I left off only with having to go through every expansion released since the newest one. So when I buy that new expansion its for something I can use now at my current level or I just plan to work my way there. Now that would be how I see things and perfectly fine that others don't and it doesn't quite work that way. I don't want to see EQ2 become Solitaire where you get to pick any card from your hand every turn.

Play time should equal reward so if it isn't, that needs to be addressed.

The problem with this though is you are using new content abilities in OLD content.

This is like showing up to a street race with your friends in a jacked up truck while they are in a Prius. Its laughable.

Go use that spell in current content of heroic+. It won't compare then to what it would do in OLD content.

My belief is that it is in the interest of EQ2 to have a disparity between casual and hardcore, so long as measures exist to keep it within a margin of reason. Things worked well when every expansion acted as a quasi-reset.

The issues expressed by the OP are valid in ways that were not relevant in prior expansions. It is no surprise to see some people, with a lot of time, but a lack of talent, supporting the current model.

there really is no disparity between Hardcore and casual, the only disparity in the game is now in Tithe, those that went out and spent months in the zone grinding out tithe are the ones doing the uber damage. How can I say this? here is a numbers I put together to try to figure out resolve, and what is needed for the new expert raid zones, but the shaded in lines are all the gear that is obtainable by anyone almost solo. and most of the heroic gear is close to what the raid t1/t2 gear is in Potency, the difference is really just resolve and maybe more cb. I have noticed that 10/14/20k Potency are the big turning points. You will see a difference when you hit those numbers, to hit the BIG damage most of those are at 25k potency, and thats ALL tithe. so you can get to "hardcore" numbers being a casual player by just doing the quests and doing solo/pqs that are in the game


Type Resolve
head Heroic 11
shoulder Expert 11
chest Heroic 11
forearm Heroic 11
hands Heroic 11
legs Key Mythical 20
feet Heroic 11
waist Heroic 11
ear1 Heroic 11
ear2 Ascension 10 20
wrist1 Broker Mythical 20
wrist2 Heroic 11
finger1 Heroic 11
finger2 Epic Ring 17
charm1 Epic Charm 16
charm2 PQ Charm 17
ranged Epic Ranged 20
offhand Sig Quest offHand 20
mainhand Epic 2.0 25
cloak Tradeskill Cloak 20
neck Epic Neck 17
resolvebuff Coercer Buff 15
337

I would argue that the grind for tithe is one of the differentiators of hardcore versus casual

Tithe will most likely be nerfed. But tithe grinding is efficiently done in solos now and any "casual" can rack it up in instances unaffected by locked down contested farmers. Anybody can quickly and easily earn it.

Wrong. I got a paladin with his epic 2, lvl 10 geomancy, level 6 elementalist, and my warlock is working on epic 2 and is close to 6 in etherealist. I simply put more effort into things then you do.

your suggestions for vet rewards were all things to make you not have to put in any work into requirements for epic 2 (token to lvl 100 crafter, token for all 'rare' factions maxed ) you complaint here is that someone that plays 4 hours to your desired 2 hours will become signifigantly stronger then you. you don't want to help your fellow players (you don't like the idea of 'carrying' anyone in groups cause they take longer) and want to be able to clear zones in 10 minutes or less.

which means for people who put in that extra time and effort, you'd rather us sit on our hands for the rest of the year/twiddling our thumbs while you take 7 months to chew through stuff we were done with on month 3. there has to be a carrot to keep the 'hardcore' as you would term anyone that plays the game more then a couple hours a day interested. right now, that carrot is Tithe and to a slightly lesser degree, Ascention. It means I can log in outside of raid times, and still improve my character even if I have all the best gear available. and one of the best ways to get tithe/ascention is group zones. which means hey, maybe some of them would be willing to carry YOU through a zone cause they want or need an extra body and it'll take ten minutes even with your weaker toon.

While you talking about "work" I am talking about "game" and thus we completely disagree. You making no difference between RL and VR - you are talking about turning EQ2 into second job - which in my option is wrong. If I want to have second job I'd play EQ1 because its much better game for those who live in basement and don't have job
I do not like even smell of idea to turning EQ2 into hard core only second job.
And just FYI - grinding tithe SOLO is still THE BEST way of doing it. Again just FYI killing boss in expert heroic zone give EXACTLY SAME bonus as killing boss in AS zone (ha-ha)

Whoa, whoa there. There is no way you can say something is work versus play if the very problem is you don't want to do it. That's when it becomes work. So stop doing it, problem solved. But just because you want and can play longer doesn't mean you're moving back in with mom. Does that hold true for everything in your way of thinking? It still seems clear that you're asking for something people have worked for to be given to you. What is the reason you need to be on their level anyways? It certainly doesn't seem for grouping since you look down on some there. Look down on those with more play time. And what about the folks that only want to put in 30 minutes? Look up to them? Doubtful.