Disparity between casual and hard core

So, what of all those that have left the game over the years? They listen to some of these wants and desires for the game and Facebook games will be more challenging that EQ2. Oh, nevermind. I just remembered you have to play those too. I can't think of one single game that would or does encourage their players to not log in as much and often as possible. The whole business model is designed that way. And it would be foolish for EQ2 to appeal to only one or the other (we see the result of appealing so much to casuals). Hardcore players make some of the best advertisement for a game. And casuals will sink money into it. So your hardcore entices the casuals. But no one should confuse which they are. And no shame in being either.

The game should offer both an entertaining experience. When it can't do that then its broke and needs fixing.

Agree that a game ideally should suit both - but simple economics means that limited developer resources won't be able to produce product diversity to cover a broad base of requirements. Therefore a design that encourages such is a road to nowhere.

@Rainmare
a) I have Ph.D. molecular biology so I am familiar who and how long and what study - nowadays I am working as solution architect for Microsoft affiliated company and making about 3x money I was making in science. So first lesson to learn - its ABSOLUTELY irrelevant on how long you study, where you study and what you study. After all - Bill Gates is college drop out
b) Unlike job (which you don't have to love or even like but you have to do it diligently) game serve different purpose - it serve for produce endorphins in your brain (which of course different between different ppl but doing hamster wheel run aren't doing that job for me). Anyway I was PG in EQ1 and I am still PG in EQ2 - while do not clock several B DPS I am easy go over 750M should I push hard enough (again this is no rocket science not even molecular biology lol) - its monkey job.
c) like I said way back in time and like I am saying now - if you can't beat system - join system (hence you don't need like you suggesting "hard work" IN THE DAMN GAME - all you need pick flavor of x-pack and enjoy the ride.
d) Now saying that - my problem with current game is alting been effectively killed, gap between casuals (or between your alt and main) grow disproportionally big because of way is Ascending work, because of Epic 2.0 and because of Tithe grind. This artificially split players on like "premium", "first grade" , "second grade" and "oh well ..." Difference was build not because of strategy, game knowledge, gearing (lol everyone been cookie cutter look since AoM) but because how much damn time been spend in game doing hamster wheel runs. Hardcore in EQ1 was above and beyond casual not because that person spend 10x more time in game but because he was in highly organized raid guild that was capable of getting much better loot and foci than can be optained by casual on one hand on other hand because of structure of AA and overall knowledge of class - believe me even life-tap tanking from necro was more brain exercise compare to mushing 1st weakness for BL most of the time and blewing chain once 6 increments are up and fervor rune proc lol. Now finally to the point
You game knowledge and knowledge of your skills and a class is no longer relevant AT ALL - all what matter is TIME and time is matter not because it translates into something strategy or skill wise but because TIME nowadays = POWER (because of Epic 2.0 AND Ascending AND Tithe)

I agree with the OP here, wholeheartedly. And as I expected when I perused the thread, it's filled with e-studs who claim to play casually but also manage to be competitive with the hardcore raiders. Pretentious nonsense.

The crux of the matter is that the game was more fun when there was more parity. I remember being a semi-casual player during EoF and RoK but still grouping and raiding with the hardcore players now and then. Occasionally I'd fill a raid slot for Dracos or find myself in a pick-up group with Alvarez, Spahnlie, or Skel. I didn't contribute as much to the group as they did but it certainly wasn't a huge gap, I was at least a relevant player for the situation. That's because the gear didn't make such a huge difference, what mattered was your spec, your encounter knowledge, and your class knowledge. Even when the epic 1.0 came around, those who had it weren't sporting some insurmountable edge.

There also weren't SO many time-sink variables for people to work on. Pretty much all the work you had to do was kill content and hope for a good drop and a favorable dice roll. These days playing EQ2 at the highest level must be pretty much a full-time job. Potency has become so all-important that toons without massive gameplay invested in tithe grinding are totally irrelevant - I see all the time groups asking for minimum 15k pot to join. I might see 15k pot before November...maybe. Ascension is ridiculous, if I play at my usual level between now and the next xpac, which is a couple to a few hours a day, most days but not all, I might have two of them done. Might. I certainly will never have all 4 ascension classes before it becomes irrelevant.

And I'm not really complaining about my toons - though if I was I would probably complain about the fact that my alts are essentially worthless now, no time to keep them up even slightly. What sucks is that I'm a pretty good player, but finding a group that approximates my toon's power level is near impossible. Somewhere between face-melting and total sucking there's a group I'm competitive in, but I'm damned if I can find it. As the OP pointed out, there are toons doing 200x the DPS of other toons in the game now. I have grouped with both ends of that spectrum.

It's pretty obvious to me that this is an engineering fail. If this paradigm was intentional, it was a bad concept. If unintentional, it was bad design. Either way, it's bad for the game, might very well be the final nail in the coffin.

I believe there is someone who wields a lot of personal power over this group of devs who doesn't want to admit he's wrong about game mechanics, and that's why they're letting the current scenario play itself out instead of fixing it before it kills the game. That's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for the devs continually acting as if everything is just fine in Norrath right now.

I disagree with a little of this in terms of how you say the sig line and advanced solos don't get you ready to do heroic dungeons. Back when the expansion came out, I did the sig line and some advanced solos, and I was able to do well in heroics. They took time and effort and felt very similar to how the expert dungeons feel right now, now that I have about double the potency that I had after finishing sig line and some solo stuff. 12-14k when I started doing heroics compared to 22-24k potency that I have now depending on what ascension I have slotted.

This expansion is definitely more difficult than the previous 2 that I played. However, the expansion also provides pretty steady progression. And honestly, it's not all that different in terms of power gap from this one to last one. It was just a lot easier in the last one to actually be decent.

It was also a lot easier to get groups in ToT than it is now, so that is an issue as well. Tithe, I see as less of a problem than the fact that it is very very difficult to maintain more than one character who is actually competent. Because everyone is focusing on epic updates and ascension grinding for their main, there is a LOT less time to be having fun with alts and running groups consistently. So those people who are stuck needing gear can't get a group and certainly can't carry a sub-par group either. But very little of that problem has to do with tithe.

Tithe has created a gap, but the gap that tithe creates has always existed. I look at last expansion when my first dps was solid for my guild at like 70mil damage. However, I grouped with people back then who were doing 500mil. Compare that to now. I'm doing very good damage. And yet there are people with 10k more potency than I have who can double my damage. And most of that 10k potency is coming from a gigantic stack of tithe. But again...how is that different from before? That person who has 10k more potency than I have put more time into the game and made himself more powerful. He also has higher level ascension spells to add to that damage. And from this point forward, it will be much more difficult to grind tithe to ridiculous numbers so that person's tithe gap has been effectively slowed down.

The new content that comes out will be tuned to people with epic weapons, which means they are also tuned for people who have at least one ascension class at level 10. And I do think that in the future, they need to add a tithe catch up device for sure, for people who are just starting out. But, the current tithe difference that I have personally witnessed isn't really any different from the power differences of the past between people who raid AND play a ton and the people who are more casual. It's just more noticeable because the content is more difficult.

I hope tithe is made account wide, and I hope that they provide a means of catching up for new players. But you can do fine in current content without truckloads of tithe.

@Nukyular
Don't worry much about 15k worry more about necessity of having 25k by the end of x-pack
While getting your Epic 2.0 (and you will get it because it became sorta a must have item instead of proud to have it ...) you will get bunch of really neat items with 1.3k Pot on it. Also (eventually) since you are likely doing hamster wheel PQing you will get enough currency to buy ring and wrist items (20 resolve 1.3k Pot)
If you have started yet - when start doing key quests. I'd say get at very least 800 or so it should be just enough to generate 4 shadow quartz keys = they yield decent 14 resolve armor if you feel particular love for keys quests gather more to get more signifier set pieces
Between keys and epic should be pretty well set for 15+k Pot thou

Unfortunately, I don't think there is any way to fix this in the middle of an expac. Even if it was a massive buff to the lower end instead of a nerf to the high end, the higher end players would rightly see themselves losing the achievements that they worked very hard to get, when they have a reasonable expectation of it lasting until the next expac. It could easily devastate the high end of the game.

I think a more measured response would be to consider what is happening today in the design of the next expac and ensure that the spectrum of players isn't so widely spread for the next go round.

Right now the only thing that really matters is that you dump a bunch of cash into your ascension class abilities to be high on the parser. Face it, that's all this boils down to, who's broomstick is bigger than yours. I know players who were barely top 15 in raid, spent a butt ton of cash on Ascension spells and have since moved WAY ahead of those who were top five but didn't drop the cash. Sorry but skill means zero now in terms of DPS. Knowing the fights and your class is about 10% of the game, the rest is, "What's in your Wallet?"

+10500 here
Look I did not that dramatic cash drop but GMed my 2 epic skill (one by mistake lol) and my primary class DPS spells are at expert-adept level. From what I have seen expert is exactly double damage of apprentice (I am not sure about GM but I have feeling that they are triple damage of apprentice skills) given fact that top 5 of my DPS producing skill are 1 epic dumpfire pets, second is Septic Strike, third is Virulent outbreak and they account for way more then 50% of my DPS - toss here Blood contract and I have only hardest hitting primal sometime getting 5th on the parse (or Dagger storm depending on crits). I'd imagine for etheralists it will be something similar replace septic with levinbolt, VO with etherflash, add EA, implosion and cascading force and you got the picture

Middle, end, beginning of new expac: I can't imagine them being able to close this proverbial gap without cheapening current players recent efforts and time invested in reaching ascension 10 / epic 2.0. Moving forward, its only those individuals (with asc10 / e2.0) who will / (are) parsing at the top of the list, and they will continue to do so until this inchworm effect closes the gap. I hope in earnest that newly returned players, players just starting the game, and the old grizzled veterans have the wherewithal and fortitude to stick with it long enough to get their epic 2's. Otherwise, the game will continue to be split into haves and have nots - where the the have nots are discouraged and demoralized for underperforming - and the haves are sick and tired of carrying an entire group.

Unless new weapons with higher damage procs are introduced as a stopgap measure next April, there really isn't a way for a non epic 2.0 person to contribute as much to the parse as someone with it. Its similar to a scout with ravaging, and without, but on a much grander scale. Which, this gap - is clearly intentional.

Already, there is discussion of a bauble to allow your alts to bypass the faction grind - provided you have 1 character that's finished one epic 2.0, much like the other Nye token. I think this is a move in a positive direction. Despite it being a small confession that grinding grey faction is useless for an end-game item, it will open up the doors for people like myself who actually enjoy playing more than 1 toon.

I'm not sure what will become of the deity potency grind - players who've managed to get 50 plus points in there would certainly be mad if I could buy a bauble with loyalty points that granted a one time boost of one stat to 50... but I digress.

Ha, Im only in the 30's and would buy said coin!!! Gimmie!!

@Zedd
They already started moving toward that direction (not tithe part) but Ascending
If no one notice I will point this out - as of 2 weeks from now getting single level of Ascending is about 2x faster than it was at release why? because of 5 scrolls weekly bonus (DB slow down ppl of getting epic to the point they wanted no longer needed to keep torture is going on). Basically I will get my Ascending class 2 not in 49 days but more like in 24 or so (from starting point I am about to hit level 6 once I get my weekly scrolls)

Getting the class yea, sure why not. Then they can sit back and wait for you to be unskilled and just want to hit buttons to top a parser and still know nothing about your class. Gamebreak has really screwed the pooch on this **** and ruined my game!

Not sure if this wasn't mentioned / discussed already somewhere on previous pages of this forum, but I think two things would help to finally stop the growing gap between new toons, and between those which have been gathering Tithe ever since ToT came out:

1. Set a cap to how high the Potency / Crit Bonus / Stamina can be increased, dunno what most of the top people are now at, let's say to 25 in each. After which you stop getting any more Tithe experience. So once you reach that "roof" you're at the "top".
2. Give (more) options for new people to catch up with the Tithe, for example like purchasable Tithe Point Increaser scrolls (make them not cheap if you will), maybe some bigger Tithe points pool instead of only 10 at max., more Tithe experience increasers instead of only the Tithe Coin.

This makes it's way into the game, and no more abyssal gap growing between people, but instead a manageable peak of the top for anyone to work up to. Grouping situation improved (if not saved somewhat), and it could be introduced even now within Kunark Ascending expac.

Well then I think that game is dead and just hasn't been pronounced yet. Now its possible that they could focus all their resources on casuals. But that's not going to appease people who have good jobs but think their education had nothing to do with it who want to be able to buy their way into hardcore status. What does that status mean when there's no one up at that level to play with because all the actual hardcore have left? Are we going to just be a game where all the "best" players bought their way to the top instead of working for it and now we're all expected to follow suit? Are we prepared for that? Because down the road, those people will demand me and you who don't learn to play. Or pay as the case may be. Look at the people who say we're already expected to buy our way into power even though we all obviously haven't when they are the ones doing so? A way for us to follow them so they feel important some how?

I want the good old fashion kind of game. The kind that allows the hardcore their fun and casuals theirs. And when a casual wants to become hardcore, he works at it. When someone doesn't want to group with you, you can work at becoming someone that doesn't want to group with them. There's no crime in working at something if you enjoy it. And if you don't enjoy it then maybe you aren't hardcore material because last I checked you don't get a nice bundle of cash at the end of these expansions. There's nothing that demands you be the very best at a game today. Maybe you don't finish this expansion this week. But maybe next week. Maybe you'll always be just a little short but as long as plenty of people around you are also there to play with, how is having fun at a lower ability lesser than having fun at a higher one?

+1

so what do you consider casual then?

Read all of it please. Something from over a week ago and you guys are just jumping in on what has already been cleared up. Please read the thread in its entirety before contributing. He actually said 3 hours a day and 36 hours on the weekend. My basic assssss math says that's 51 hours for the week and holy crapola that's not even close to casual imho. But again, we solved this over a week ago...

Moving on...

Good post and I agree with you. In the "good old days," you could be a good player with easily-obtained gear. I remember Exel, ranger from Dracos Argent, who was one of the highest parsers in the game during EoF (and about 9 years old if his voice on vent was any indication), used to purposely wear nothing but treasured gear to a raid, then top the parse anyway, just to show that it wasn't all about the gear. And he had all the best-in-slot gear of course. Just didn't wear it. Crazy little bastard sure knew how to ranger.

Now though, it truly is all about the gear. And the tithe grinding, the ascension grinding, and the spending of serious amounts of real money to master out ascension spells. So being a top player doesn't mean much anymore. I remember Exel, I probably always will. But I won't remember any of the current crop of DPS face-melters, because I'm simply not impressed with god-tier grinding.

Not to say there aren't still some highly-skilled players around. But who can tell? Do the curtains match the drapes? Only her hairdresser knows for sure.

i agree for the cap. maybe there is but it's so high wa haven't reached it yet.
it's problematic how easy we can now reach some caps like crit bonus or spell cast/reuse/recov or most autoattack stats, you need to reforge everything so u don't waste too many stats. but then pot and Ability mod aren't capped (well Ab mod is capped by the spell base damage but as it adds damage after potency, if potency isn't capped, then neither Ab mod)

so all we need is potency. but they shouldn't have made it that easy to reach cap.

and also the P2W, the fact that now u need to get the next version of the spell ... u can't upgrade to master if you find the scroll, you need first to find the journeyman adept, expert spells. And seeing the drop rate .. we won't see much of them. It's jut to make impatient people spend cash to upgrade their spells. same for the epic spells. they change the rules for only two reasons.

time gating and cash. pity