[TLE] Why pay to win?

In what game? if this was EQ circa 2000, I might agree with you. If you think that was ever the case in EQ2, you're delusional. Even with vanilla, certainly after a few months and all the "new car smell" had worn off, level 50 was simply the point at which you started focusing on raiding. It marked the beginning of playing the "real game", working on Speak as a Dragon, getting through the Fire and Ice raids and all the rest. Everything else was just the preamble.

The first time I hit 50, no one threw me a ticker-tape parade, no grand applause at my amazing achievement. So whatever you're thinking of, I'm pretty sure it happened entirely inside your own head.

^^ 100% agree with that one.

And enough with the "bads" nonsense. It does nothing to bolster your argument and only serves to make you look like a tool. Because someone doesn't agree with you does not make them a "bad".

Leveling doesn't help you perform better? Go have a lvl naked 100 dual a lvl 1 in full master crafted and you tell me who wins. Also gear is permanent? Levels aren't? This isn't EQ1 you can't de-level. Please you replace your gear 5 times an hour with how easy it's handed to you now.

Every game max leveling is when you start focusing on raiding. And exactly a few months compared to what now? A few days or hours? Everyone always says how the game starts when you reach max level but go play an older MMO even vanilla WoW and go level in it. You'll see leveling is a lot harder and a lot more fun than this. Getting a piece of gear actually means something because you'll need it to advance. So yes it was an achievement when you hit 50 in vanilla. I'm sure you were proud of it at the time because it wasn't a 30 hour train ride it was you putting in actual time and effort to achieve it.

And it's not even that I oppose vit/xp pots in the game atm as the leveling is just laughably easy (except maybe TLE without them that could still serve to entertain you for a week or two) and it's an 11 year old game. But to say that xp bonuses you buy with real life money aren't pay to win is just stupid. If you could pay 100 DBC to get all your mythical or prismatic pre reqs done so that you can start the quest is that also not pay to win since those are you know just preamble

It was a long time ago, so to be fair I can't say that I wasn't proud of it. I certainly remember feeling relief that it signaled the end of the interminable XP runs up and down Sol Eye and around Permafrost. That had gotten old.

The difference being that those quest prerequisites actually require you to play the game. It requires action on your part. Vitality is exactly the opposite. It's something that you get for doing nothing. There is absolutely no functional difference between someone who buys a potion to reset their vitality and some who simply stops playing that character for a week. The only difference is in the amount of time elapsed.

I'll restate that there is no competitive advantage to anyone leveling faster, except if you're in some kind of competitive hardcore raiding guild competing with other guilds for first kills. And on the TLE servers, frankly that's kind of ridiculous, don't you think? Racing to be the "first" to kill a boss that was killed 10 years ago?

I'm still not convinced that if you manage hit level 60, 70, 80 or whatever a week earlier than I do, that you've actually paid to win anything that matters to anyone other than yourself.

Its becoming very obvious the debate has become against a guy that just dislikes the game and just wants to vent against it no matter what is said. If he wants to think a xp potion that gets you exactly where anyone else can get as pay to win, let him.

Yep, that's what heavily contributed to my loss of interest.

Appearance items are pay to win, because I want to win at looking fabulous.

/thread. There is no arguing that one.

Leveling is actually playing the game as well probably more so than most of the pre reqs or if not pretty much the same thing. You need to fight or quest in order to order xp the same you would to complete those quests.

But compare vitality to a raid lockout timer. What if there was a Reset Instance Lockout Timer Potion (wonder how long until these get implemented) which would completely wipe clear your raid lockouts? It's the same logic as vitality you can't do anything in that time that to speed it up and need to wait the duration for it to come back or in this case go away. If they sold these potions for DBC would that not be considered p2w?
Or is it only that leveling has become so irrelevant, due to the p2w such as buying a 90, that people don't consider it p2w because it's such a norm. In that case just give everyone an avatar and erase all levels from MMOs

The difference I see there is something that clears lockout timers would enable you to pay to get more of something (gear) that is not generally accessible to everyone. I'd also have issues with a potion that increased your drop rates for metal chests or increased the odds that you'd get rarer loot. Leveling, on the other hand, is simply a means to an end, and it's accessible to everyone.

That said, if you think potions that allow you to level more quickly are pay to win, then wouldn't you also have to consider expansions that raise the level cap (and only allow you to reach that new cap if you purchase them) as "pay to win" as well? I think the real issue is that everyone has their own personal idea of what "pay to win" means, and their own line in the sand that they think the company should never cross. The problem being, of course, that line is different for a lot of different people.

No not at all because they have new content that the levels are required to beat. And especially in this SLR era the gear is pretty much accessible to everyone not to mention levels are also pre requisites to using the gear.

here's a concrete example: being a higher level than someone else is a "clear, substantive advantage" while pvping.

i wasn't here for 50, but the trip from 50-60 took something like 3 hrs for the first deathtoll toon to complete.

I remember buying one once for 5plats, since i saved 11 kronos so i could actually cancel my sub ..
For me the TLE is more win to pay than pay to win. When a toon is out of vitality i simply switch.

I suppose it's another one of the "I don't want to pay for something, so either no one should be able to, or you should give it to me for free" posts. It's clear a lot of people don't realize that it wasn't so long ago that if you didn't pay, you couldn't play at all.

I'd say more like 5 seconds. of fame

Since you can get mercs of comproable strenght in game it is not P2W in that it is not giving you something you can't get in game

haha, just got a thought into my head.... WoW and FFXIV is pay to win, because you can't win unless you pay a monthly fee

I really do hope soon enough people won't care, and will just play the game and enjoy it and not care how others progress. Thats probably an unrealistic dream though.

But you need to pay for the mercenary feature or "No mercs 4 j00!"

Pssh, buying mercs is pay to lose, because if you have to buy mercs, you have no friends to help you, so you lose

..... I had to buy mercs