Dungeon Maker Changes Coming Dec. 16

Feel free to read the 10 years worth of message board posts I have left on these forums to explore the multitude of times I have vehemently disagreed with SOE. I am no mindless SOE fanboy, as you imply, I just feel that these particular recent changes have been quite positive. I would prefer that you focus on attacking my arguments, not my character, as that will lead to more practical discourse.

Funny when you've basically attacked everyone in this thread that doesn't agree with you.

Other posters do not have to seek your approval to have an opinion, so perhaps you could refrain from calling them ignorant.

In the interest of practicing what I preach, here is a nice article on Gamasutra regarding player churn in WoW:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/107470/Analyst_Talks_World_Of_Warcraft_Churn_Monthly_Revenues.php

And another that mentions player churn on average:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...tar_a_game_no_sane_human_being_would_make.php

To quote the relevant text in the latter,

all sony needs to do, is give us a reason to still play DM, we can work around the exp nerf if they gave rewards for playing them, to attract other players. Hell that's all most of us want, is to share our designs, with others.

Being told you are wrong is not an attack, and expressing an argument that is not supported by facts IS ignorant, by definition.

And what exactly does your data tell you about players doing content with no reward? Fine take out the xp, but why the rewards for doing the dungeon? If they are leaving it in game there needs to be a reason to zone in to it.

And who are you exactly, to tell other people their opinion is wrong? I would call that ignorant.

Passive aggressive attacks and presenting opinion as fact with uncited, unsubstantiated sources of data seems to be the theme of the thread. The burden of onus is on he making the assertions as far as I am concerned.

I have not made any value judgements regarding anybody's opinion--I have no interest in opinions on this topic. I have stated that, regardless of one's opinion, I believe the removal of DM as a factor in game balance is the right call for the continued health of the game as a whole, based upon previous experience with similar features in the past.

Personally, being the owner of the most popular dungeon on Permafrost, with more dungeon marks than I could ever possibly spend because of it, I stand to lose a lot of value with their removal. Obviously, it would be in my own best interest if they left the rewards intact. However, I also recognize that the risk-vs-reward was far out of balance, and that I can't let my own self interest come before what I recognize would be the in best interest of the game as a whole. It isn't the first time a major change in the game has devalued one of my accomplishments, and it won't be the last. C'est la vie.

As it stands, after the change there will be exactly the same level of motivation to build dungeons as there is to decorate houses. Personal creative outlet, primarily. The housing leaderboards have many fine examples to experience, so there is no reason to believe that DMs won't follow suit.

Of course it's up for debate. If this was Day 1 of EQ2 and everyone leveled up to 50 in an hour, then yes that would be an issue. But it's not, it's 10 years later. Many of us leveled to 100 on day one and ran straight into the raid zones because that's the aspect of the game we enjoy the most. THEN we went back and played through the 80+ questline sig, THEN we went back and did the heroics, and the endless harvesting to upgrade our spells, etc, etc, etc...
The questlines haven't changed much from any other over the years: kill 5 skeletons, click 4 bushes, talk to that guy, wow awesome...

The ultimate point is everyone enjoys some part of the game, whether it's decorating homes all day, tradeskilling, grouping, soloing, raiding. PL'ing in instances that do not affect any other players in any way just makes it that much faster to get to the part of the game we like to play.

And if SOE has an issue with PL'ing, fine...then remove Heroic Characters, remove Vitality potions, remove AA potions. Because that is all the same damn thing, except they charge for it. Why not just put a level 100, 350 aa char on the marketplace for 5000sc while you're at it.

No, the onus is on the party seeking to alter the existing decision. I am merely participating in this debate for the purpose of entertainment, as I am in agreement with the status quo.

I feel for players that enjoyed building the dungeons. I hope they can find some incentive to continue building them with this change, myself, I can't see it.

I agree with you with the xp. I do not agree with taking out tokens completely as there needs to also be incentive for players to use them. I even agree with resetting the leader boards as the ones at the top now, are purely based on xp gained.
The risk to the toons I took through them, depending on the dungeon, was extreme lol. I only used them for low level toons.

It seems like this is the first step of them completely getting rid of them. I wish they had of improved them rather than do this.

Not all opinions are based on data, some are based on passion. IN MY OPINION no opinion is wrong, if it does not agree with your own, it is simply different.

anyone else notice that sony hasn't responded at all to this. They know they are wrong, and don't want to admit it, I just got my friend to play this game I spent maybe 100 dollars in the last month buying crap in the SC because I been gone so long I needed to catch up, now I think I may quit and find something else. there are no groups, and everything is dead as it is, yet they kill the part a lot of us found rewarding in the game.

Being an INTP, I recognize that I am not innately well-equipped to understand what it's like to base opinions on passion, but I am aware that it is very important to many different types of people, so I will respect that. I do not intend to offend, honestly, I simply enjoy vigorous debate and the mental exercise involved with using logic to defend one's position.

Logic tells me that your average player will not use them at all, with the change.
If a player has disposable income, and unlimited plat, and enjoys building, I guess they will still be built. Not everyone is in that position.

I fit more into the ISTP category, but I think we both like playing a bit of devils advocate. ;)

Oh, you definitely got me there. ;-)

I am glad you two made up....am I sensing a love connection?

I just spent all my tokens, my hall of fame gave me so many tokens I had no clue what to use them on, so I used them on dun spawners, till I read this, so I wasted them buying comsumables, and weapon mods, mounts for all my alts, and so on, till I have only 6 marks left LOL I spent 60 something K I think in marks, basicly 3 bags with repairs, food drink, some gear, and reforge items stacked

This.

Why remove Dungeon Mark rewards? Couldn't XP gain be slashed without removing it? I've rarely used DM, but it never bothered me that others do, and I've been saving items and planning a themed dungeon for 'fun' more than XP. Removing all XP and removing DM rewards/tokens seems like chopping off someone's head because they had a headache.

If a lunge towards leveling is really the concern, why not remove Heroic Characters? At least DM leveling required someone to create a dungeon, and players actually participating (albeit a short time). Heroic Characters require pushing a Click to Pay button for one second.

Something is just not making sense with all of this.

Just in case it hasn't been said like 40 times in this thread... the sky is falling, I am an eleven year vet, I run several accounts, and I am quitting. Something, something, Sony, something pay to win, something cash grab.

/sarcasm off.