This game is too Raid Orientated

@OP: Late insight

I am really with you though, but we had that topic late level 70 (Faydwer raids) and early Kurnak when EQ2 turned into Paradigm of EverWOW and people left in droves.

I have seen a lot in this game. Its peak and its lowest point. Trust me, its getting better atm. The worst that could happen ever is that SOE fails on EQ Next. Its the last chance for the EQ universe.

I will honestly say as a hardcore soloer ( I absolutely HATE grouping/raiding), that EQ2 has been taking turns for the better in the Solo department. EQ2 has become alot more solo friendly then it has been and its a good thing. I myself love the story line and the main issue remaining with me in EQ2s Solo/heroic/raiding content is that a soloer is still blocked from so much of that storyline... Though EQ2 has been doing a better job in letting soloers enjoy more of that story line, it has a ways to still go.

As to the issue of gear though, I share a common thought pattern as many soloers. Why shouldn't there be a way for soloers to slowly over time be able to earn the same gear their raiding counterparts are able to ? It in no way effects a raiders gameplay if a soloer manages to get the same gear (Unless of course you consider the ability for a raider to sell raid gear to soloers for money).
All i want in this factor is the ability to have my solo time ( which in most cases equal more play time then any hardcore raider) to grant equal rewards.

I pretty much only solo, and occasionally help a friends guild when they need it. I do not believe any solo rewards should be the equal of raid gear, or even heroic gear. If all you want to do is solo---fine, but expect the rewards of putting that amount of effort in, which is the low end of the spectrum in quality of gear. Solo gear should prep you for heroic, heroic for raid. Any other way for itemization and you negate a step in that hierarchy. Allowing the fabled gear to drop in solos is one of the dumbest ideas SOE has done in quite some time. It makes there no reason to do heroics, outside of trying to getting a mount.

Being able to see the storyline from any playstyle perspective has been a step in the right direction. Bravo to SOE on that part.

Eh, the emphasis on raiding is a little too much.. but i think the overall design is right.

I do think there's quite a few heroic encounters that are more difficult then some raids. And loot does not match properly.. But that's just my opinion.

Raids, have to give something worth the time... Personally, i think the drinal merchant is amazing and keep adding to it. That will more than solve any problems. And don't just do stat increases... there is all kinds of things you can add.

Immune to cc clicky
damage reduction
increase range
scout ring with a hate transfer

basically... to make an amazing effect.. look at the classes faults.. every class has some... and make effects that fill that gap
when equipped .. player has access to a heal they can cast every couple seconds... you get the idea...

you get the idea.

As a raider I think I can answer that. It is my belief at least that if the rate of gear from Solo is at all even remotely higher than Heroic, it will cause players who normally group for gear to just solo. It's those "I want to group, but don't because I can't" players who Raiders/Groupers want to get into Heroics. You won't learn to group if you don't. I personally have grouped with some of the "I hate grouping" crowd and they actually enjoyed themselves, probably not enough to try grouping but certainly not everyone is a meanie. It's a matter of perceived reward vs time invested vs difficulty. A major part of that flaw is Itemization, which has been a failure in CoE.

I have no issues with Soloers having the ability to get a single Greater Spirit every 30 runs (guaranteed) and 10 Obol in the same timespan. It still would take them 60-90 runs to get a single piece of Stewards T2 armor which is pretty much Raid-Armor. That is fine and totally workable. The number may be a bit high but the point is that if you want Group/Raid gear quickly, then Group/Raid. Soloer's also still get the Yellow Adornments they need from Solo zones so that is good.

The issue I do have though is the rate of Primal Gear, which I do not know if it has been touched recently. It was too high, it caused players who used to group just to mass-farm solo's just for alts or SLR gear because Heroic Gear was garbage. The same is true from CoE zones. Did you know Quest Armor is 143 while Solo Legendary is 163? Seems good right? Well guess what? Sleepers Tomb: Catacombs is 160 gear and less Blue-Stats. So why run Heroic when I can get slightly better from Solo?

That is the problem with Solo Zones as they are now. The gear needs adjusted and the difficulty perhaps too. Adv-Solo should be 157 Gear and Adv-Fabled should be 166 (between Heroic Leg and Heroic Fabled). While not concrete numbers that just is an illustration of how itemization should be set up. Ethereals and Spirit/Obol are what allow Solo players to break the boundaries of Solo-Play... no problems with that.

Tbh I don't think reducing the numbers on the armor from solo zones would do much good, I think a much deeper change is necessary, why?

Current itemization:
Everything has the exact same stats, just in different values.
Red and yellow adorns for Armor are boring and frequently just serve to boost the ever same stats already on the item.
Effects don't stack (which removes choice of gear as you are forced to hunt down obscure effects).

I think simply lowering the values of the ever same stats would not be enough to make group and raid gear appear exciting, lets say the green stats would follow a pattern of lets say 160 on solo loot, 180 on heroic and 200 on raid loot, where would the excitement be in that?

In other words, itemization needs much more variation on top of needing progression.

Maybe it does but the issue is almost every cap is easily reached leaving the only space for real improvement in stacking every last ounce of CB/ Pot depending on class. Primary stat numbers almost don't matter either. Its CB, Pot, procs, and static effects. There is so little space in the process and effect category gear just comes down to CB/Pot and the super rare stats that are not reforgable and those stats have little to no variance.

Fixing Itemization means placing gear where it should be in relation to gear form other teirs. This means some gear will be increased other gear will be decreased.

No there is another problem though, encounter design on many fights is lackluster or tedious. The problem is making fights many will want to do repeatedly. Tbh I feel TSO/SF did this the best, at least of the content I played. You are correct though it needs both progression (numbers based) and variation.

I would kill honestly for there to be multiple sets of gear again. Back in Sentinels Fate as a Tank I had the option to mix-n-match my DPS and Survival gear/procs to maximize myself for my guild... now I can't do that so much. I have to bid on scout loot to do that.

I dont beleive raiders should have a monopoly on the best gear. Solo people that PAY for the game are just as needed as raiders are. Our money and time is worth just as much as any raiders.

Lets be honest and just say it how it really is. Raiders do not want solo players to get gear equivelent items because then they cannot sell there left over scraps that they themselfs do not have any use for or there guild wants. To top it off, they are actually the minority and in so many words have proven this. Just like when they say if solo people get access to great gear equivelent to raid quality then alot of there raiders would stop raiding and go get it themselfs.

THAT right there proves a majority of people only suffer through grouping with people they do not know or usally dont even like, just to get geared. Honestly i like to group sometimes but it isnt often. I play with family members and friends that are also in game, but rarely do i want to hang around with strangers for just a hope and chance of getting a single peice of gear that i want.

At least with friends i know where i stand and usally they are there to help me and not just to further there own gains. I think raiding is great and if people like doing that then by all means go ahead and go for it, but there are alot of people that want to play and feel more accomplished when doing something for thereselfs. Raiders are only complaining because of the main reasons i mentioned and thats all there is to it.

They can cry and gripe all they want to , worried sony might implement something equally as good for soloers, but there just isnt any logical reason to even think that because solo people get equally geared , that it hurts raiders for any other reason then what ive stated.

Most people that play do plenty of socializing with auction sales and small fights with monsters here and there, hell half the time chat is full of mainly questions and decided answers on strategies, although woven in between that you will see raiders selling there unwanted table scraps to the non-raiders. Well like it or not, this game seen a serious influx of players enjoying and praising the solo content that was put in. Now all you see since the nice loot drops was nerfed are people leaving again.

Chat for sales is hardly what it was and the poor raiders SLR days have slowed ALOT. Everyone here has seen items that before the nerf was selling upwards of 800+ plat , going for 50p here or 200 plat there. Yeah your plat farming runs took a nerf hit to, but hey, be a grown up and shell out 15 bucks and pay for your game like an adult. If 15 bucks is hard for you to spare from your pocket, then ide say this game is hardly your biggest life problem. GET A JOB.

I personally think MORE solo content should be added and EQUALLY if not better gear should be given to a quest hearty adventurer that has the intestinal fortitude to go and get something himself, instead of be hand fed and carried to the finish line by shear numbers of bodies in a raid.

Raiding should be for people that love to be a so called team player and enjoys the thrill of others around him and yackin it up half the night, NOT an elitist shout for power and < wheres my uber gear> . Not everyone enjoys that type of long drawn out ordeal, or has the time for that kind of gaming. No we shouldnt look for another game and NO we shouldnt have to settle.

A game company can cater to either side , be it solo or raid but more often what game companys find out, usally to late, is that they start to lose player base when they go more to the raiding side. As evidence is proving to us as we speak. Basically raiders are usally stuck up and snobbish, for the most part act holier then thou, but not all of them mind you
.
I personally dont want to be told how to play my character or class or even for that matter TOLD how a mob should be killed. Contrary to popular belief, a solo player has many MANY strategies and scenarios to play out when he is trying to accomplish things on his own. He is responsible for himself, his heals, his dps, his pets or his own talents to tank, heal , dps and all those things rolled into ONE. Agro range and special abilities, let alone having to employ a multitude of things like potions or buffs , clickies and items to help him get the job done and earn his loot. SOLO people stand on there own, not propped up by the support of 20-40 people.

Keep that in mind the next time you feel big and stand there with all those people behind you looking across at the single man standing alone for what he thinks is right. This is just my own opinions and you may like them and you may not, but i spoke how i feel. Take it or leave it

Every game I've ever played had tiered gear.. solo, small group, large group.. whatever the designations are for those three types of play. The gear needed to be successful at each tier is different. The 'least' gear being needed for solo play, the 'best' being needed for the large group content.
If it was just a matter of 'I pay for the game, I should get the gear, no matter what', then you'd get a full set of the best gear every time your toon leveled.
I do raid with in an alliance that is on the cush of doing hard mode raids. We don't sell gear, nor do we buy it. We 'work' for it. My toons that don't raid, not need, and hence don't get raid gear. I don't feel like I deserve hard mode raid gear. (Yes, I could afford to buy it in SLR.)
Yes, this is a game, but like other games and hobbies, effort, practice, time and skill reward divdends. The athlete that practices and exercises does better then one who doesn't. The musician who practices makes 'better music' then one who doesn't.

As I already stated, some people would like to have there characters geared without having to raid , and NO raiders don't work for there gear any harder then anyone else. you aren't special and don't deserve anything more then anyone else just because you enjoy raiding.

If this game was totally PVP and it really mattered out in the game world , then YES you raiders would have a legit gripe, but as it stands right now, you have no logical reason to not want solo people to have anything just as good as you have.

Someone else in this game that doesn't raid, having equally good gear that they have gotten by themselves isn't hurting your game experience AT ALL. You like to raid then fine go raid and group until your blue in the butt from sitting.

As I hear raiders state all to frequently, < I love raiding and grouping with my guildies, its a challenge to fight the epic bosses and totally own a dungeon that's really tough content> WELL whos stopping you? GO DO IT .

What, you think because someone in game has some good gear , that the tough content you love so much is going to stop letting you in or something? You want to claim you work oh so very hard for the gear you got , well that's just a big load of dooky. Don't think for one second your the only one on this planet that's had there raid group hold something while you log in your alt to loot the chest HAHA that's ridiculous. OH NO we wouldn't do that aye? Or maybe that heirloom piece is magically bound to you and you alone and alts cant use any of it huh?

Come on Paalees , that's the oldest washout excuse and typically comes from raiders. Not to be an *** but geezuz, raiders sing this same ole tune every time a game changes to something less then total raid kissup content. Name one thing that actually HURTS your game by allowing someone solo to have an item or access to the same stuff as a raider?

Or maybe I should say something that doesn't hurt your ego or stop your gravy train farming, which by the way NONE of those things mentioned stop you from raiding, or grouping with your guildies/ friends or fighting your hardmodes whats so ever.

Only thing it would effect IS your ego or your plat wallet. Its a sour apple but bite the core and just get over it.

Oh and some people like I said don't have the time to play games all day and yes they could use good equipment as well for things that aren't in a raid only content area/dungeon. Maybe since raiders are so fond of there raid gear, heres a great idea, but ill bet raiders would hate it .

Lets take ALL your raid gear and make it flagged so if your not inside a raid content area, the gear is lowered to standard SOLO gear quality. I mean hell guys you don't need raid gear for solo content right? LOL oh how they would cry if that happened to them. Sounds like I heard that exact same thing from raiders aye? We don't need raid gear when we don't raid, well you don't solo so you don't need all that power for solo crap right?

ROFL no way every solo player wouldn't love to see that, if for nothing more then to watch the raiders flame about it haha but in all truth it would be funny and well deserved shoe on the other foot so to speak. Think about it.

If soloers can get raid gear, then solo content will be 'tuned' to soloers having raid level gear. Which means people starting out will be unable to do solo content... because they'll only have solo gear.

I would disagree by the time raiders have to put in versus people getting gear other ways. and I don't mean raid times cause many guilds have been cutting back the amount of hours they care to raid. what I mean is the time raiders wait to even get to the content. Just like now (and many times before) raiders are "gated" from killing mobs because the gamemakers make them wait until it's close to newer content coming. Yet raiders can't just go on break and wait because that would cause some people to probably never come back. nope raiders just get to sit around and wait for the game to catch up.

and raiders deserve raid gear for raiding. just like crafters deserve crafting gear, solos deserve solo gear, pvpers deserve pvp gear.
no reason a pvper or soloer needs raid gear.

I like raiding 1-2 times a week, but I hate that guilds have a monopoly on raids.
The whole raid thing should be unplugged from guilds, meaning that a good player can join any raid that has open spots and be assured that he gets his fair share of loot without having to commit to one guild because of DKP points.
Best thing would be to add DKP to the player directly, not managed by guilds. So anyone can take his DKP with him anytime. And the raid leader can't deny anybody from bidding on anything.
or just remove ALL the loot from raids and give people tokens and boss-kill certificates, so depending on what you killed you can trade your tokens for gear and stuff.
Something like that.

If you could get everything in this game solo what is the purpose of grouping and raiding other then doing the zone once?

next expansion people will be crying up a storm when they cant solo the new solo stuff because they don't have the raid gear SoE made available to them in the coe solo zones....

I don't think that the game is raid oriented. It's actually guilds. Some guilds are formed for mostly raiding, some are only for crafting and some for casual gaming.
Eq2 now has content and incentives to maintain all kind of guilds.

And that is how it should be.

Plus some people log in only for mandatory raids. Some for everything. It all depends on personal play style. But raiding for progression can be really tough. All reasons included. Dificulty of encounter, time it takes and even personal relationships in a guild. You just have to do it if you trully want your guild to progress.

No.

There are a thousand posts out there that have addressed this already. Raiding guilds are not going to let just anyone walk in and raid with them, period. The biggest reason? Ok, the raiding guild is working on the next progression mob, for a week or two or even more, every night we die time after time, 10 maybe 15 times a night. Are you willing to join a open slot for that, knowing the odds are that you won't get any gear? Are you going to show up every night so you know what the current new strategy is? Let's say after a week of trying to kill this new mob we finally do, do you really think I'm going to let someone who just that night joined the raid walk in with a bunch of DKP that he's gotten from other raids have a shot at the new gear that all the other people have shown up for every night? Not a chance. You want raid gear? Suck it up and be a full time member of a raiding guild.
SoE can install an In game DKP system if they want, but the only one that matters is the one on our guild website. And as long as I have a "Kick" button, you'd never see what even drops in the chest.

First off, I can guarantee you, most of the raid the encounters are immensely more challenging than the solo content. There are a few exceptions on either side, but to flat out say raiders don't "work" more/longer for their gear in comparison to soloers is just ignorant. Run a few raids, and you'll see. It is much harder to coordinate 24 players to a task than to walk into a room and punch a mob in the face with a merc and watch it die.

As to the rewards, I would agree with you if this game wasn't designed around gear for progression. Take GW2 as an example. It is EXTREMELY easy to get end-game gear in that game. Your reward for more challenging content is appearance only. Guess what happened, PVE players left the game in droves once they hit end game on their 2nd-3rd toon. So much so, that ANet implemented a progression stat that was required to fight the harder encounters when they released new content.

People are lazy. If there were no gear tiers in this game, there would be no grouping and raiding. People would do the easier content to get the same reward.

Let me paint a picture for you.

Option A:
- Gather 23 other people for a 2+ hour session
- High risk of death
- Almost guaranteed repair bill
- CHANCE at 1-2 pieces of loot (Assuming something you actually need drops, and you win it)

Option B:
- Go into your own instance
- Clear in 5 minutes
- Little to no chance of death (even in crap gear)
- Guaranteed Loot you can either equip or sell

Which option will you choose?. I can almost guarantee MOST players will pick option B. If there's no greater reward for Option A other than the bragging rights that you were able to do it, the content just won't be run past the first 1-2 times. Sure there will be people who will run it just for the challenge, but that list of people is VERY small. Playing it for fun only goes so far. People want something to show off for their accomplishments.

EQ2 has always been about gear, and progression. As far as gear progression, solo should reward less than group, which should reward less than raid. COE is broken because the progression is solo is better than group, and equal to entry raid. Group content just plain isn't run as frequently as it would be if there was a meaningful upgrade from solo content.

As to your comment about raid gear scaling down while solo. Personally I wouldn't have any problem at all with it. I'm one of the few who enjoy a challenge and find face-rolling through solo content with entry raid gear on extremely dissatisfying. I don't need the loot, and simply run it out of boredom for a little extra plat here and there. I'm sure a lot of raiders would agree as well.

Now, all that being said. If this game was designed so solo content was as difficult as raid content (Somewhat seen in new SG zones) there would be mass hysteria from the soloers in this game. There are already numerous complaints about the level of difficulty of these new zones and they're not THAT challenging, just different.

Token gear systems work to an extent. They have their own set of pros and cons, which actually are the same thing.. Pro - Everyone gets gear, or a chance to roll on gear they can use on every fight. Con - Everyone gets gear, or a chance to roll on gear they can use in every fight.

The reason it's both a pro and a con is, while it's nice to get guaranteed gear, you only every have to run the content a few times to completely gear out everyone in the raid, then again for all your alts. This is slowed a little if it drops 1 token for all to roll on (making it a minimum 24 runs to gear an EQ2 raidforce) but there's no reason to run it again once everyone has what they need

Random gear systems, while frustrating at times, actually keep people playing (and paying) longer because you're not guaranteed to get useful loot on every run.

Not sure if this is directed at Veeman, or just a general statement of raid leaders. If it's the later, you need to find a new guild.