Please go back to the roots of EQ's gameplay loop

Tracking ornament drops is WILD. I get 3 more often than I see 1 from regular named mobs, I only ever see 3 when they drop either a t18 or an ore, and its almost always one of the 4 sets of nameds that drop 3x ornament, and sitting in one spot killing cat or frog over and over and over to maybe some day actually get better than 1 t3 ore drops every 8 or 9 kills (its moving closer to 1/10...), I see a whole lot of nameds...

I feel like ornaments are taking the spot of merc gear or ore drops, or merc gear is taking the spot of ore, because THAT might actually make sense for how much of what you need and what mobs drop ornaments at the increased drop rates most often (armor ore droppers. Its armor ore droppers.)


This expansions ore drops are awful, the loot tables in terms of what and how drops happen are awful (No, I dont actually need a guaranteed merc item off every named in the expansion and 1/50 off trash), having the bis charm aug on a mob that doesnt exist half the time, and only on that mob, is awful

Itemization took a gigantic step back the last couple years. And personas make it even more noticeable this year.

As someone who wants the style of gameplay to comeback, I have an issue with the above and it always seems to be the same misunderstanding.

We don't want to take anything away from anyone else. We want the style of gameplay we love re-introducing into the game which doesn't take anything else away from anyone. In fact, it gives the people who love progression even more as they benefit from more exp per mob kill and the OPTION to camp mobs in dungeons, caves, towers, castles if they choose to.

We're usually upset because the devs and people like you REFUSE to understand that both styles of gameplay can exist. The only difference is that the one you enjoy is still worthwhile, and the one we enjoy has been slowly neutered out to the point where you'd be mad to say it still compares.

One of the main reasons personas haven't taken off is because of the 110 - 125 grind. That has become a grind because you can't breeze through it with the progression exp bonuses anymore and people are realizing how much of a bump that is. For people like me who can't make groups easily and can't do the progression route that exp bump exists for every single one of my characters all the time, every time.

I use overseer to trudge through those levels (and it is a trudge at 5-8% a day across multiple characters) only to find that when I reach lvl 125, the main content is also stuck behind progression.

If progression granted less exp but was rewarded every time (as an example), it would open up the progression route to more people as people would continue doing it. As it stands now, once it's been done once and the bonus has been earned, the only incentive to do it again is to 'grind' out the currency. After that, the missions are dropped by most people except the odd ones that will run TAs for free for people, and the ones that make millions charging for TAs.

This game has gone from sand-box (sort of) to theme-park with very little option to do anything else. That would be fine if there was a vast amount of content to be worked through, which there isn't.

Seeing that the merc gear also drops off of trash mobs (just not at the stupid high rates of named/chests), I think putting it on the named was a mistake. And I think the devs are so out of touch with the players and game that they overestimate the value of ornaments. Both should only be dropping from trash mobs. I've got ful sets of merc gear on my mains, all my alts that are 125 or will be there soon, sets in the guild bank, sets in multiple character banks, and some on traders...I think that's a pretty good indication the itemization is wrong. Meanwhile, only 1 of my main toons even has full visibles, and that's only because he's the tank and I funnel everything to him first.

The only things that should be dropping from named and chests are actual character t1/t2 gear and "ores" (I'm sorry, I'm still not sure what we're calling them now). I don't think even tradeskill items or collectibles should be on a named/chest loot table either...just gear.

IMHO there are several questions that need to be answered, all in regards to time investment. Because let's be frank- it doesn't take skill to gain levels or AA, it just takes time and (for some) groups of 2-6 people. I will base the questions around the following thoughts-

I think it should take a player with a below average level of time investment an entire year to go from 120.99/max AA to 125.01/max AA.
I think it should take a player with an average level of time investment 9 months to go from 120.99/max AA to 125.01/max AA.

Obviously these thoughts can be changed. But if they hold true, then I am curious what a developer thinks the following answers should be to these questions-

1. How much time per week is an average level of time investment considered in EQ
2. How much time per week is a below average level of time investment considered in EQ
3. How long is it expected for the average player to kill an average non trivial dark blue con in a current expansion zone

These answers can come from two different sources- what a developer thinks is reality, and what is the actual reality based off of data that (I assume) they have at their disposal. Once the developers decide whether they want to bass their decision on (a) their vision/perception or (b) reality, then mob grind XP/AA should be based off of that. I don't know if the percentages per mob grind XP are based off of that now or not. I also don't know how often an average time investment EQ player plays, as well as a below average time investment. Does the average EQ player play for five hours a week? Three? Nine? Does the below average player play two hours a week? 3.5 hours every two weeks? Who knows except, again, developers.

Players that want to speed up the XP process can do so via progression, overseer, collects, etc. Those that don't don't have to. At the same time, playing all aspects of the game should allow those players to get to their destination faster than those who just want to play one part. My ranger, for example, sits in guild hall every day and just does overseer. It is naive for me to expect a 125/max AA ranger at the end of February with just Overseer compared to my mage that was 125/max AA at the end of February who did progression, collects, overseer, mob grind, etc.

And I do think that is one issue and one heated debate in this discussion. The "mob grind only" group wants to be max level/AA at the same time as the player that does progression, collects, overseer, and mob grind. And I cannot speak for others, but you will never convince me that those two camps should be equal. It should take longer for someone who just mob grinds to be max level/AA than the player who does everything. Just like it should take longer for my ranger to hit 125 doing only overseer than the mage who does everything.

And the debate then becomes "how much longer should it take?" And to me, that is where the arguments and vitriol starts.

I do hope the Devs are taking note of the logical loot pool explanations in this thread. You need your filthy casual groupers, and having what seems to be unintended RNG obstacles like this is very bad for the game.

I kind of laughed at Jen Chan a bit boasting how more players are logging in Tower and Anniversary Events as some kind of gauge that the game has never been more healthy, I love ya Jen, but people logging on and scarfing free rewards or unlocking Tower rewards and just logging off isn't really a great gauge for the game's health/success.

You really should address the Ores issue, sooner rather than later in group and Raid. While we're on it, your players absolutely LOATHE individual slot Ores. Please revert back to 1 Ore - for group and raid.

I wonder if she's aware that the Tower HAs only award coin. The only AAs to get from them is from the initial achievements on the key task and the completion of the HA...which I also believe come with currency. So, given the price of the vendor items, once you do the key task, the HA once, and get the monthly collection (which is also only currency, no AA), there's absolutely ZERO reason to go back to the Tower until the next HA unlocks the following month.

It's a one and done monthly event.

Yea that is me right now until the next expansion comes out I am logging on once a month to do tower achievements and then not logging on again until the next month achievements open.

To me, a fair compromise would be to keep the single slot ore but move all Ores to a vendor to buy with currency. And have the ability to loot an undesired ore and sell back to the vendor for currency that can be used to buy the desired ore. Just like how raiders (albeit on a smaller scale) have the ability to loot a TS neck or cloak and sell back to vendor for currency.

I can understand not wanting universal ores- theoretically you could kill 25 named, loot 25 universal Ores, and gear up over a solid weekend. But I fully agree there is way too much RNG aspect for single slot ores to where you could go an entire expansion and not see something that you want/need. Hence the currency suggestion

The thrill in many games is the risk involved and the potential loss and setback.

Ironically, many of these games that play with the psychology of danger and fear of loss, also have a cozy aspect to them, where you can return to the safety of a town, an inn, away from danger. You can't have a feeling of comradery and safety, without making the world dangerous.

This duality where you play with risk, reward and safety makes the game thrilling, it gets your blood pumping, it causes a social fabric through interdependence.

I don't understand why the developers took this away in EQ and just kept the grind but removed the thrill. The power of guilds also largely removes much of the thrill, because guilds have become a safe-haven. One should be rewarded for risk-taking, including playing outside of your comfort zone, in EQ one is rewarded for not taking risks instead.

There is no risk in Overseer. There is no risk to any raids. It's just stupidly easy grind without thrill.

Which is EXACTLY what group players, and some raiders, have been saying since they came out with this pants on head , dumb as hell, single slot system LAST expansion.

That is a problem with EQ today. It is mostly a solo / box game these days with little touches of group stuff. Mercs are a good and bad thing, they make it easier to solo / box but at the same time it works to destroying the entire point of playing an online game with others. At this point without mercs I wouldn't even buy and play the next expansion but normally when a new expansion comes out for the first 2-3 months you have enough people playing so you could do it without mercs but after 3 months of a new expansion being out good luck trying to do anything without a merc because players have finished almost all new achievements and only login for raids.

People are gearing up faster under the new system then they did under the old system even if it feels bad when there are no drops.

EQ has too small a team to do anything much outside of their streamlined, on-rails, Progression system content.

Going back to EQ's sand-park, broad style of content roots is not only something they cannot do, it;s not what they want to do either, streamlined, narrow focus achieves their current development goals (usually), anything more would put those at risk.


EQ is in "maintenance mode" and the expansions are so small they are hard to justify EQ as "in active development" if its active it's only just, other games have 3 monthly content-patches that are bigger these days, expansions are really just maintenance mode for EQ to retain its current players.

Ding ding ding

[Redacted]

[Redacted]
[Redacted]

[Redacted]

[Redacted]

A fantastic response that doesn't sling mud at any particular player's gameplay and focuses on time played which I don't think is a good idea. I think it would be great if DBG actually explained the reasoning behind their decisions on this rather than just reply with short / single word answers. If they could show the thought process behind it, maybe I could get onboard with it more.

I know I'm not the efficient EQ player out there and I could regularly play upto 6 hours a day. However, the exp kill per mob was so low to me that I just ended up doing other things rather than spend 6 hours for what I could get on Overseer in a matter of minutes. So, hunter / slayer achievements, TS skills to max, Artisan's prize, ToV earring (and many many attempts at group progression with me boxing which wasn't very successful).

As you rightly said, levels are the easy part; AAs, HStats, gear, etc. all make a much bigger difference in the end. However, for someone who ended up levelling purely through overseer, I no longer have the incentive to log back in at 125 and then spend weeks / months grinding the gear / AAs etc.

I know have around 6 characters at 125 and about 4 that are 120+ (even doing overseer the second time around on some accounts loses its shine.) My original FTP accounts were shelved around 103 due to the 200% exp cap.

All of these 'additional' characters were introduced as a way to 'solo' my way through group content / progression. But in reality, it just made the AA / gear / progression path exponentially longer.

It's a shame but the time when I made the decision to level only via overseer was probably the time I'd quit. It just took me those 5 levels on each of my characters to realise this.

My characters are in a fairly good place if I choose to resume playing but for now, I can't see any real return on the time I'd need to invest.

It's a very terrible reply with ideas that show no lack of thought around them.

Also, the guy created a morality argument between a strawman 'grinding' players and those that quest, where the questing group has the morally superior authority.

It's exceptionally narrow in vision, and begins the vitriol that they claim to want to avoid.

I highly doubt that. And the only chance it would is because the coin rates have gone through the roof the last few years with the 2x, 3x, 4x multipliers.

Ah here you are again with your anti-grind exp witch hunt.

Please stop with the strawman. Nobody is "mob grind only." They just want choice. Get that concept through your head.

Why can't grind exp they cannot be equal? Because...you say so? Why is running around picking up shiny yellow balls more efficient then actually going out and killing mobs? Are you going to argue that the HF partisans consisting of killing a handful of mobs, picking some stuff up, running around, and hailing should legitimately be 4-5x more efficient in exp than actually...killing monsters? Or better yet, logging in, typing /over, clicking collect reward button and get 10% exp for doing literally nothing in the current expansion's content (the same content you claim the devs want to force us into). I'd love to hear why you think so outside "because devs designed it" or some other throwaway comment about devs which really don't provide any insight into your own opinion.

And don't give me the "do the game's content" excuse either. Is going out into the world and killing in-era monsters not considered doing the content? Why not? Only certain content within the content is acceptable for you? Is this some weird inception where we need to find the content within the content that is acceptable for Cicelee?

The best design in EQ came around ROF-COTF when both quests/missions and grinding were both viable. You could do quests and if you weren't in the mood at the time, guess what? YOU COULD GRIND! Holy cow what an incredible concept! You had choices to effectively use your time instead of being pigeonholed into brainless quests that are basically all the same.

At least one guild leader has posted that they geared their guild up faster last year with the new system and are on the same/better pace this year. I know it seems like it is slower but at least one guild is showing that it is faster.

And those multipliers have been in place longer then the current TS item system. With the switch to the new system there are plenty of TS parts on the vendor that are a lot cheaper then the universal ore was in the past. Because of that depending on your luck it can be much cheaper to finish it off with the vendor then it used to be.

ignore me.