Why don't people like the game post POP?

New theory is, the sense of fresh start is gone and over with by the time PoP rolls out.
All of those do it 1st, is pretty over with too.

People really play TLP because its a fresh start not so much because time lock progression, I mean that helps the fresh start to feel fresh longer though.

Also, truebox gets relaxed and what not by then too. People like old EQ because playing with others.

Old EQ wasn't about boxing, and being the best box on the server. All quests you can do anytime and finish anytime. Self reliant boxing. ALSO, wasn't about self reliant raids too, aka you get to do them anytime. It was if its open first come first serve.

Old EQ, come help me with quest I can't do it without you, and celebrate with me when I finish it too. Community.

So freshness of the server goes away. (everyones got raid gear because AOC)
So boxing is relaxed so everyone is self reliant
Its just not fun anymore, not much to do with the expansion it is on.

It's partly factions, partly travel, but mostly because casual gamers can't stay engaged well enough to actually continue.

Early in EQ the size of the world and the factions provided some complexity. Not to much but enough to provide some difficulty. People complain about the boats not working and whatever but things like corpse runs or being unable to go somewhere because the guards will kill you aren't really compelling gameplay.

People that like to create <x> class of <y> race then endure a terrible run to somewhere that they'll bind and hang out is valid and anyone that wants to play that way doesn't need my approval anyway. However it is unacceptable for people who knock around casually chatting and slowly killing to complain about others having hit max level and getting good gear in raid. If you don't want to be judged for being casual and playing Farmville while semi /afk at Orc Hill then don't judge people who have to fill slots in a group with boxed characters because you're undependable

This is a very valid point. The number of people semi-afking, halfarsing in pickup groups is mindbogglingly high in TLPs especially most recent ones.

The DPS (esp. rangers, wizards and sometimes monks) don't want to be MA as it interferes with their movie watching on the side or whatever.

We know the content is not really challenging (remember, this is EQ: The only challenge is the RL time you sink into it, really) - but being a sponge is a new level of low.

I was in a velks OC/IC group where the tank went AFK and got upset we booted him after 10 mins (when he came back after a while) and called us rude

I think this is a function of the game being dull as crap there. Sitting in guk not moving and killing the same 10 mobs for 5 hours? Melee having a choice between 2 buttons to press? Casters aren't able to push more than 3 buttons cause they'll be oom and have to sit for 5+ minutes to med? Thats mind numbingly boring. Even if its the best thing to do for your character.

Choice? /autoskill x

That is expping in EQ in a nutshell anyway - doesn't matter what level you are or grinding AAs.

Call me old (I am ), but I don't think freeloading and being an all-round semi-AFK person is okay even in that instance. These are people who want the group exp but don't want to put in the basic effort into it And that is uncool in my books (guess I am a dinosaur)

I can only speak for myself, but I am well over doing the Classic-PoP slog. I like the content of PoP, but the flagging has always been a nightmare, and back flagging new guild members or alts/boxes just exaggerates it. And as far as nostalgia, well it can only truly be found on a P99 server, the Classic-PoP game on a TLP is only as close as they can get it, not truly as it was back in the day. I'm looking forward to everything past OoW as Oakwynd progresses.

I think most of the reasons have been covered in this thread. I am a weirdo in that I liked GoD a lot more than POP. Other than the loot pinata of Time, I could've done without most of POP.

One detractor for me post POP is the proliferation of augments. All of sudden, the number of slots to gear your toon doubled. Not only that, there were different types and levels of augments and you needed to have the correct distillers to remove them without destroying. I get why they were added for further chase items and "content", I just find the whole augment implementation to be a PITA (except for weapon augments). Best thing I did on my last run through TLP was to not worry about them, but I imagine main tanks don't have that luxury. It sucks to take a break and when you come back, there's 40ish pieces you need think about finding upgrades to in addition to the progression.

There's illusions that get me interested in the early game. I mean I like to play short characters because it looks like they are running faster with POV being closer to the ground.

Look at the progressions you make. Things like a first getting SoW and Stinging Swarm, you become a minor god. Then there are the buffs and ports. It get demonstrably and hugely better all along to level 50.

Next expansion you get AAs! Godsend! Run speed, longer underwater travel, etc.

Finally with PoP, you get everything you get most things you could possibly want. PoK stones so travel is easier. Huge quest lines for flagging Planes. Augments, instanced zones like LDoN, Charms.

Then it goes from level 65 to level 70, big hoop te do. Ditto for level 70-75, I can't remember anything from those levels that gives a reason for being. You get some nice AAs that are useful, but almost everything is same old-same old. There's a couple of things I like as far as perks go, Lesson of the Devoted, Loyalty Vendor, Summon Resupply Agent, Headshot, ... but I can just play live to get those. It loses what makes TLPs great for me which is character development, not just level advancement.

I like OOW a lot - Epics, Anguish and whatnot. DoN isn't bad either for me.
It is the stretch from PoR which kills it for me..

I liked the OoW/DoN Era, when epic 2.0 was the best weapons, there was so much content from tacvi, anguish and Don raids.
If a tlp stopped there, I would set up shop and never leave.

falling behind in doing content not the best bis armour to many aa and to short a time to max them,compared to 6 or 12 month live expansions ,thats why mischief has been popular it makes it easier for people to gear up and comeback and catch up.

ldon sucks and should be released with pop, the 70 slog is to much for most people and should be released as 1 or 2 chunks instead of 4xpacs

I dont think its that people dont like post PoP. I think most people just dont last that long for whatever reason, and PoP is peak nostalgia for most people. some of the expansions after PoP are actually some of the best in the game.

Raiders last through PoP (unless they get burnt out - some guilds go nuts raiding 3 or 4 days a week, and there is only so much 25 minute fights in Vex Thal one can take).

Non-raiders remember how terrible PoP was on release (When they bought the expac and realized they just got PoK and a couple of meh zones, everything else gated behind flags), mope around - and give up on the AA grind. The fear of GoD around the corner does a number on some people too.

One reason I liked Mischief - GoD was a breeze even for non-raiders thanks to bazaar bought Time gear! I am excited for Teek for the same reasons!

I agree with most of the broad points here. What really breaks my heart is that SOE could have course corrected at basically any point. The reason I play EQ is the group (and, frequently, solo) game, and it always has been. Raiding is just a thing I've also had to do to keep up with the Joneses, and that's exactly why I dropped off during POP/LoY circa 2003, and whenever I've returned to live (or more frequently, Test), it's always been in short sprints to tour anything new and interesting--never to catch up and raid. In the years since 2003, I've had a lot more fun playing EQ2 than EQ live, and my characters on TLPs made it much, much further than I ever did when POP was current.

And it's been because so much of the game just became inaccessible. POP was functionally walled off by flagging, and that meant that when I bought the expansion I really only got a handful of zones for my money, because I wasn't raiding (and, therefore, wasn't flagging) at the time. I never saw the inside of a single GOD zone until the content was nearly a decade old.

And SOE could have kept me subbed had they cared to. If the power gulf between group gear and raid gear hadn't started broadening so aggressively, if the flagging hadn't been so long, circuitous, and easy to mess up, if the game had shown any inkling of support for folks who didn't make raiding a second job ...

I still, 20 years later, have no intuitive understanding of how flagging is set up in POP, and I'm a very well educated man. This [EQ Progression] seems to be a pretty good, straightforward breakdown (and anybody can follow a checklist), but there is still uncertainty in that list about some of the steps! I can't imagine figuring all of that out blind (which is what the bleeding edge guys did in 03). And as I understand it, that kind of process ended up becoming the template for how content progression would work going forward.

Good or bad, it was alienating. Even if the stories are compelling, it doesn't matter if you're asking players to pay for it who are never going to see those stories. EQ started off as a miracle of technology in which people could group up organically and play together, but it became a demand for players to organize in ever-larger, more logistically sophisticated corporations, requiring planning, scheduling, and continuous time commitment. Some people love the latter, but the ones who don't (or the ones who already have commitments that prevent them from playing that game) were essentially abandoned by EQ after its first three years, and if that ever changed I wouldn't know, because I was already gone by then.

i love it! but miss a raid or two and most guilds don't really want to backflag... they say they will, but doesn't happen in practice

I think it's mostly nostalgia, many people quit after GoD and they are unfamiliar with post-GoD content.

The expansions directly after GoD are actually way better. In OOW/DoN/DoD/TSS, the zones are graphically way better, the monsters are way better animated, the music in DoD is amazing, the raids are no longer tank-and-span but actually require a strategy.

Just to prove my point. The designers of OOW/DoN/DoD/TSS made EQ look like a fantastical dreamworld, like a trip to Tomorrowland. The zones look amazing.

The game lost all of its magic for me. The expansions started becoming linear box checking exercises and the fear while exploring what little there was to explore was gone from stacking up QoL improvements. Dying, traveling, preparing, equipment, etc, all reduced to nothing for the sake of mindless by-the-numbers raid activities.

You start noticing that the zones no longer feel alive, and the space within only exists to house static, and predictable encounters. A little too much EQII started bleeding in while chasing modern game successes.