Everyone gets smoked by the AFK monk..... But don't be acting like playing a rogue takes more then /autoattack on. Every class has their good and bad expansions, some are just more then less. Rogues do fine in Kunark+ people just let me to complain when they are a DPS class and they aren't #1... Well not all DPS classes were created equal.
Just an op, but any change that intends to make Rogues more viable should be right out of the gate Classic. There are a few pet peeves, like you don't get to easily<AFAIK> raise lockpicking until PoP. Lockpicking works for Najena, Befallen, and access rock to Paineel. Probably other places I can't think of off hand. It's a bit of PIA to have an Evil Erudite who's main job it is to let you into Paineel. Out of the box, maybe 50 Lockpicking would be good with a way to keep it maxed that didn't take months. I think I already said here or somewhere else, just make poisons stack! They work just good'nuff, I often have a Rogue with a poisoned "Woe" so I get Affliction and Strong Poison<?>. I admit it isn't the greatest, but it is kind of fun. https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=642 Upgrade to Tesch Val Sinisch https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=642 to Strong Poison and Kicsh Der Pavz https://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=314 to both go off a lot more often. IDK, Rogues as they are, in my case I love one equipped with a bow for pulling, would get a lot more play if they had more upsides out of the box. They left all the downsides in while taking away their reasons for being like corpse retrieval.
Classic/Kunark they are the worst of the worst. Velious 1-2 rogues per 72 man raid is acceptable once they have avatar. Still not great. Luclin - they fall off hard since rangers rule the day and monks still OP wizards really start to take off with aa and heavy FT. PoP - u could have like 3 here but still way behind rangers since they have to joust aoe and rangers can just sit at the table and range everything and outparse. You gotta play it cause you like it. I did it finally once.. It was fairly enjoyable but tough in the early days. DPS is reliant on other players actually knowing how to control aggro and position as tanks or your BS will get wasted.
Even as late as Underfoot right now on Mischief, rogues vs monks/zerks with BiS weapons and ideal ADPS are 20% behind on short burns, and that gap gets much bigger on burns longer than 36s. Rogue cooldowns are shorter and they use less endurance, but are so much weaker that they still don't keep up on sustain. Once Rogue's Fury finally starts getting duration increases in VoA and RoF, you finally see Rogues being within the same ball park as the other pure melee DPS on a normal 1-2 minute burn. It's bittersweet since this is when the age of caster DPS dominance has entered full swing. In HoT, Anatomy catches up to -2 (level 88), and you finally have some really nice sustain DPS during grinding value when you target mobs they can assassinate. I would be so much happier with my rogue if it had a bigger, longer duration burn on a long cooldown that operates something like the big burns of zerk/monk. And maybe a way to burn more end for more damage. IMO they could safely give rogues the Rake's Rampage AA vastly earlier than COTF (with a much longer cooldown).
Good point. Still a bit of a problem though. Let's say you choose a Dwarf Rogue. For a TLP just starting, you have to run, boat^2(translocator), run all the way to Qeynos, take the boat, kind of stuff until you get to the Paineel Rock. Then with your newly acquired lockpicking you have to run back/death gate to use it in Befallen or Najena. You don't get picklock until level 5, but it is still a tough run. Suggests getting Picklock at level 1 would be a good idea too. Erudites are the only ones that start there and you can't make an Erudite Rogue. IDK, just thinking in terms of having fewer downsides and a few upsides. Day zero/Classic too.
Here's my thoughts: Rogues have no utility whatsoever. Rogues are good DPS in Kunark / Velious. They don't quite match Monk DPS in Velious, but they get close. They can beat most others, usually are 2nd (behind monks) on parses. Rogues are meh DPS in Luclin. Monks are still a bit better on average, wizards and necros start to top charts pretty frequently - rangers beat everyone when they disc. All melee DPS is solid, and needed, for VT clears - casters can burst, but for the 9 million trash mobs, you need that mana-free deeps. I haven't played any further than PoP in a long time.
This I disagree with. Sure, having mana-free DPS is useful in trash clears, but if I look back at my guild's parses from VT, we generally had wizards at the top of the parse for each individual boss and for all bosses combined. The biggest gap, though, was the combined raid all-mobs parse. On 12/27, our top 5 was wizard, necro, wizard, necro, ranger; the top melees were 7 and 10, the top rogue was 13th. The top-parsing wizard did 4.25% of total raid damage; the top rogue did 2.72%. That comes out to a difference of about 500,000 damage. A week earlier, our top five were wizard, wizard, necro, necro, mage; the top melees were monks at 9, 10 and 11, and the top rogue was at 17 (and they're a good rogue player with decent gear). The top-parsing wizard did 5.79% of the total raid damage, 1.1m more than the best rogue. A week before that, the top five were wizard, wizard, wizard, mage, mage; the top melee was a ranger at 6th and the top rogue was 8th. For the 9m hp trash mobs in VT, and for trash clears generally, you need pullers and tanks who position mobs in a stack and AE classes casting their AEs (and it helps for necros to be able to load dots before everything dies. VT is a sweet spot for their DPS on trash; their trash DPS is pretty bad in Ssra). Single-target melee DPS is too slow.
can pretty much afk pick the lock in Befallen... guess you forgot that... and isn't there also a bank door in freeport? been a while (15 years) since I dabbled in rogues
So, Mischief released on 05/26/2021 and House of Thule unlocks on 02/01/2024 (tomorrow). Just 3 short years after TLP opens and rogues become viable. Got it.
they have always been viable, they just haven't been "THE BEST"... suck it up... Rogues are as they have always been... Want to be THE BEST then you gotta class change a few times during the TLP's have fun with that...
Viable is to vague and really does not fit within EQ design. I would agree if rogues actually brought something that is actually "better" to the table. Viable was the original design for hybrids but they formed into a niche within specific areas of play. Rogue poison, lock picking, and within later expansions SOS is what they bring. Rogue poison is severly lacking, eventually lock picking is nothing more than a convenience, and SOS is not necessarily ever needed. Rogues are the absolute worst in soloing so they should excel in group or raid format if other classes are doing their job? Even if everyone plays at the best of their ability a rogue does not excel at any format of combat. Also the jobs they could perform or bring to the table can be performed better or more optimized by others. Viable, I understand someone has to be in the bottom. No class should always be in the bottom or obtain a pass once they become BiS. Optimizing to become relevant for selection with some if not all classes who can perform the same duties is a bad design. It is time to admit the design is at fault. They are consider a pure DPS class. Now, I do not consider pick pocketing as a fair exchange to being placed into the condition they are in. I believe their CR abilities in later expansion as a substitute as well. Poison seems meh an after thought even when I mained a rogue from the end of Luclin to OoW. The discussion should come to what can be done without altering the full design to cause issues for current expansion players? I would suggest making Double Backstab and SoS streamline and rewarded at 50. Reward Tripple Backstab at 55 and Front Backstab awarded at 60. Evade practices should function a tad better. Poisons need to actually be visited and actually thought about. Maybe this is where they could be considered a hybrid by using a poison as a particular function another class brings to the table. It has to be optimized to the point of using as an alternative. It is difficult to keep everyone happy and for everyone to earn a spot at the table. It is also difficult to improve the UX of rogues when everyone knows the encounters or can just look it up. Yet, some folks in these discussions need to be honest about their view that just because a rogue can be viable meaning, OK.. once they obtain enough gear from means not obtainable by a good portion of the population is consider viable. A reason that gear is even obtainable in the first place the majority of time is because of no competition. Why is there no competition? They do not excel in any aspect of game play. Lack of players, etc. Maybe they should look into improving the UX for the class?
Don't worry, this is the EQ TLP forums, my expectations are pretty low so I didn't expect much from you in the first place. But, I'm bored at work with nothing else to do, so I'm happy to educate you. To be honest, Manafasto hit the nail on the head. Viable was a lazy word I threw out there. Is the class playable? Barely, does that fit the criteria of viable? Sure. But lets go down the list shall we. We'll use Classic - PoP as our template because lets face it, that's the life expectation for most players on a TLP. Bard = CC, Charm DPS, Nuke DPS, plate wearing, pretty much every utility possible in the game. Rogue comparison: DPS but worse. Can't AoE, can't compete with charm DPS, or DDD especially in Luclin - PoP era. Beastlord: Pets, slows, nukes, heals, buffs, Mana regen, DPS. Rogue: DPS Berserker: DPS, snares, interrupts. Rogue: DPS but worse. Cleric: Best heals in the game, resurrection, best hp/ac buffs in the game, gate, bind, CH. Rogue: DPS, and worse against undead. Druid: Arguably best PL class in the game. AoE (Luclin era, can kill hundred+ mobs at the same time with aoe root/damage), sow, buffs, ports, heals, dots, dd's, snares, roots, charm. Rogue: DPS but worse. Enchanter: Do I even need to say anything? Rogue: Worse. Magician: Nukes, gate, DS, pet, CotH, summon items, pet tricks, rains. Rogue: DPS but worse. Monk: Best melee DPS almost always, FD (OP as hell) Rogue: DPS but way worse. Necromancer: Argueably the best solo class in the game, dope dots, pet, fear, mez, mana regen, twitch, FD. Rogue: DPS but worse. Paladin: Tank, heals, buffs, ac buffs, resurrection, cc, stuns. Rogue: DPS sometimes worse. Definitely worse against undead. Ranger: DPS, heals, buffs, off tank, weapon shield, taunt, ranged DPS, dots, nukes, root, snare. Rogue: DPS but worse. Shadowknight: Tank, offtank, group and raid tank, highest dps tank, lifetaps, pet, FD. Rogue: DPS but worse. Shaman: Best buffs, amazing dots, root, heal, regen, best slow in the game, pet, gate, debuffs. Rogue: DPS Warrior: Best raid tank in the game. DPS, required for raid content. Rogue: DPS Wizard: Best nukes in the game, ports, ds, snare, root, aoe. Rogue: DPS but worse. In conclusion every class has a thing they bring to the table. What does the rogue bring that other classes can't do just as good or better? Because we don't need corpse retrieval anymore. Bards can lockpick too and do a million other things way better including DPS. So what is it rogue's bring again? Viable? Sure. Worth playing over literally any other class even for a niche reason? Nope. Definition of niche btw: a specialized segment of the market for a particular kind of product or service: Literally 0 reason to play rogue over another class. None. They don't do anything better or unique from other classes besides needing to stand behind a mob to do worse DPS, and btw this is a handicap. So, we handicap where we need to stand and even when we do that we do less damage than any other dps class. I hope you found this enlightening. No one is asking for Rogue to be "The Best". We just want a reason to play the class. Even just one single reason.
If you want to go rogue, it is because you like the architype, not because you want to be the 1 trick dps pony that rogue is designed to be, because there are a handful of classes (throughout the arc of TLP expansion releases) that consistently beat rogue dps with much less effort, and much more utility. If a raid or group had 1 slot left, the only reason to pick a rogue would be so rogue loot doesn't rot.
Having played a rogue originally and then being dumb enough to make one 5 years ago when mangler launched... just don't do it. The only way I see them fixing rogues is if the class is so rare as to make the few instances where rogues are required without any being present causing an actual issue.
Depends if you define viable as "acceptable performance" or "truly desirable class." If it's the former, rogues become alright in Kunark with epic. Not really good, but not so bad that having a rogue in the group leads to noticeably less XP/hour. They'll be significantly behind monks, with no utility whatsoever (well, they can pick locks, but so can bards and it's not exactly something you need often). Velious is the same way, nothing really changes. If it's the latter... I'm not even sure when, but it's after the point where TLPs typically start to die down. All through the one-year cycle of Classic->PoP, rogue is just objectively worse than monk with no redeeming qualities. The DPS becomes sort of competitive somewhere around Luclin/PoP, but rogues don't really do anything else whereas monks have pulling, a clean aggro dump, and are much more tanky. If you care at all about class balance, there is absolutely zero reason to play a rogue on TLPs. The class just sucks. The many updates over the years did a lot for casters and especially monks while hardly anything was done to buff rogues, so they just don't really have a place. While a group can succeed with a rogue in it, there's just no reason to invite one unless you're going to one of the select few places that require lockpicking and you don't have a bard.
OK but not until level 5 and as a side note, someone on Agnarr just complained they got a ban for AFK foraging. There was some push back from people that believed he was doing more then just foraging, but it is against the rules. I've never tried the bank door in Freeport. Is this something that went in after the revamp of the zone? TBH, I only go to Freeport for a couple of quests since the revamp. I probably haven't started a character there in the last 15 years or so. IDK, I mean I start a Druid with the intent they will be useful as soon as they get to level 10 and have SoW and Stinging Swarm. There probably are people who would start a Rogue if there was a bit more reward when you got to 5. I guess my opinion is you would get better and sooner utilization if they got lockpicking from level 1 and it was at 50ish. I mean if I was in a group and a lower then level 5 Rogue offered to join in Befallen *JUST* to pick locks, they are in. Just not enough utility in them in the early stages, to difficult to reach somewhere to advance lockpicking, not enough reward when you do get there. Most other classes like Enchanters get a big boost when they hit Clarity at level 26 so people put up with leveling. Five levels before you even get the ability and it starts at zero. When you do raise it, BFD. You can now open doors that lead nowhere and in low level dungeons. Najena is OK, but it is a long run through dangerous territories. It has a lot to do with how the game is played on TLPs. Fairly slow experience and everyone is in a leveling contest. If you take a couple of hours to level any skill, it has a tendency to forfeit your place in the leveling contest. Double edged sword. I am going to start a character that levels slowly, needs to advance a skill with limited utility, and that skill doesn't pay much in the way of rewards. Just not a winner skill and I have even skilled up alcohol tolerance on a character. Personally it is easier to just start a Erudite Necro to get into Paineel and kill stuff in dungeons until you get a key. I have a tendency to not start a Rogue until LDoN instanced dungeons. They are OK about that point in the game because of the Charm/augments/weapons they can pull out of locked chests. I don't hang out that much in City of Mist(?) but IIRC that was one of the other spots I used a Rogue. *BUT* first time I went to City of Mist, it was with a Bard lockpicker! Now that is a character people choose right out of the box.
Spot on. I was thinking about this some more as well. I mean, if they added like a 15 minute CD for an ability like "Vanish" that functions like Fading Memories it could make the class have some appeal. And, it doesn't necessarily have to be exactly this but SOMETHING to make the class worth playing would be nice. I mean, if they want to leave Rogue as is but just add some utility to make it a useful class, why not give rogue SoS in classic and vanish. On wipes or bad pulls in Plane of Fear this would give rogues the ability to retrieve corpses from Cazic Thule. Or they can hit this vanish ability into sneak/hide to start piling corpses for rezzes I mean idk, even that is such a minor thing but any spice would do. Rogue's are just seasonless chicken, bland, tasteless wastes of space and dkp.
