Is the thief class just a no go on TLP nowadays? Very few and far between. Or is this only on Mischief?
There has been much request for the rogue class to be overhauled before. They are just kind of pointless when you could be a monk or zerker. I personally love the rogue class and think they become really fun around TSS, there are just a ton of people who don't find as much utility with the rogue. TLDR: Rogues need an overhaul
First reason is rogues are considered bad in the first few expansions (this is already contentious). So that stigma sticks and only a few mains keep playing them. Second reason is even when they are considered good they cannot solo and aren't good for boxing outside of 3-4+ box so in down time they are kind of scrwed. Third reason is even when they are even better and have merc options they can't do either of the above well even though they can blitz through 1-75 due to bite of the shissar. Fourth reason is most tlps don't seriously make it past reason 1 so they don't see the utility of rogues later on. But this can be stated for most classes me thinks.
Rogues suffer from the melee weapon ratio problems during the few expansions. Once you Vulak, Tunera, Cursed, Khati or HP dagger this problem starts to go away. Full time with LDoN augs, Rogue start to pass Monk's. However once Meleequest really kicks in GoD, 1HP weapons start having subpar ratios. Which holds rogues back. This problem holds rogues back until UF. Rogue will always struggle with self-sufficiency, they largely require that group have both a tank and healer, so a single merc is rarely enough. Rogues are best played when you have a static group. Rogue weapons tend to have less competition for them in a DKP based raiding guild. Which gives you more freedom for spending your DKP on other slots.
They are pretty bad on TLPs. Even up to Omens of War my rogue was significantly better geared than my Monk and my Monk consistently out damaged the Rogue. There's several expansions where they get no poison upgrades. Their AAs are very underwhelming. Their BIS daggers have bad ratios compared to weapons other classes have available. 1h piercing damage augs are always worse than other weapon type damage augs for some reason. I really don't get it. Rogues are like just a DPS class and they're not even that good at it. Monks and Berserkers both have better damage and utility for at least the first couple of years on TLPs. Berserker can just buy 1 item for axe components, click 1 button to make a bunch of axes, then click 1 button for a stun, snare, jolt, for a rogue to do something similar you have to farm tradeskill ingredients, skill up poison making, and then some of those poisons require you to sit on the ground for 10 seconds to apply a single use poison that can miss. The one use they actually had was disarming traps and picking locks, then that was given to bards which everyone has a box bard on auto follow. The only things you need a rogue for on TLPs now are the Folly of Miragul's Ambition raid, and the Ikkinz 4 raid, because of pick pocket. It's a joke how darkpaw treats rogues on TLPs.
I don't think of Agnarr as a pure TLP but I just started a Rogue there to refresh my experience with the class. IMO they are useful and worth having. They are in serious need of support buffs and healing but do fine from there. Some of the problems. You get backstab but can't use it/advance it w/o a group. If you solo fight anything like undead or things that don't flee, you will never advance it. Once in a group you can '/autoskill backstab while someone else tanks and it works well. Currently using my Rogue to pull with a bow. I forgot what Bow I put on them, maybe a Runed Oak Bow and 150 range arrows. With that combo they can pull from farther then most non focused magic user spells, 275? Once again, you need someone to either tank or root and shoot. Lot's of combos work, like a Mage Pet tanking, but the trick is to get at least one other player or account. They actually get good weapons on the cheap because there are a lot of Rogue Only pokers and their armor is OK IMO. I'd rather have a Rogue with a bow pulling then a magic user because they can take a hit or two before the tank can pull the MOB off. But everything you've ever heard about Rangers bow kiting can be done with any character that can equip a bow and get a SoW.
The problem with rogues is they are the worst class in classic bar none. They have terrible damage, no utility, and cant do anything by themselves (which is true forever for them). They get much better with their epic in Kunark and can really shine in Velious with the right gearing with MOTM, but the just serious issue is that monks are just better overall. Even the best rogues Ive ever seen struggle to beat good monks, and monks just bring a ton more utility. There just isnt' much reason to play a rogue unless you enjoy the class fantasy. Then OOW+ hits and they get pretty rough for a LONG time. Rogues definitely need help in all eras of the game but ESPECIALLY in classic. If they were more viable in classic more might stick with them or play them out the gate.
If you aren't keeping up as a rogue, git gud or stop making the rest of us look bad. Rogues are fine throughout the entire game, they're also the most fun factor of any class, maybe bards come second. SoS allows you to go damn near anywhere you want, illusions for days. The only thing holding you back is your ego and monks being slightly overtuned early on. Necros right now, my lord, you wanna complain about a class that's doing literally 2-3 times more damage than the rest of us...That's an insane class on Mischief right now. Rogues can solo/molo just fine once they're raid geared btw. Stick with the class for the long haul and you won't regret it. Rogues are a much more enjoyable class to play than Zerkers and Monks.
My observations have been that On TLP Monks are OP & Rogues are UP for the first few expansions, nobody really overtakes Monks until 75 when Necromancers begin to benefit from DoT revamp changes. Berserkers catch up to Rogues & roughly stay with them until TBL+ when Rogues begin puling away. Monks start falling behind after RoF when Berserkers & Rogue begin overtaking them.
I question that you even play a rogue - certainly not on a TLP. The class is not fine throughout the entire game. Do you even know what expac Rogues get SoS? Illusions? not really a game changer. Oh so you can solo or molo "ONCE" you are raid geared? What grey mobs lol! Your lack on knowledge about how this class compares isn't all that amazing - you're a shill for a monk
Yes. Monks are superior or equal DPS in every expansion and can do many other things while rogues are only positional DPS. Until they balance Monks there will be no place for Rogues in any serious groups. (Note: They won't balance Monks)
Just to echo what others have said, rogues suffer early on TLPs as their only role in the modern game is DPS and other classes do it better or as good while having other utility as well or offer better boxing/soloing opportunities. They become good in the 75+ range but on a TLP that is like year 2-3 which most won't even see.
All I know is that they spent time, even if it wasn't much, to make an upgrade form of the rogue poison spikes trap as late as level 112. Since the day this was added, I have not found a legitimate use for it though I have found many ways to troll or be obnoxious with it and that basically sums up my thoughts on the rogue class.
They should adjust the ratio on rogue usable 1HP weapons from GoD-UF, so that the ratios are on parse with other 1 handed melee weapons of those eras. Backstab damage isn't tied to weapon damage anymore, so the items ratios need to be fixed.
I play the rogue "Freedom" On Mischief. I can school you on the class anytime you want. I Molo yellow named in Kaesorra library all day btw, so greys? Yeah, Okay
I did a census of people playing the rogue class on TLP servers a few months back, published it on the forums, and found that by far rogues are the least played class. It wasn't even close. The numbers don't lie. I don't even play a rogue (for obvious reasons). So I have no skin in the game. For some strange reason Darkpaw is not interested helping marginalized classes in EverQuest. Why is that? Fantasy virtual worlds are works in progress. Maintaining your virtual world is not optional, it is absolutely required. Every few years you have to paint the outside of your house. Every few months your car needs an oil change. Classed based MMOs are no different. I believe in the concept of class equality and class diversity. It's RPG design 101. MMORPGs are boring when most people end up gravitating to a few overpowered classes. When all the original classes were designed back in 1997-1999, I highly doubt that the idea was to make some classes desirable and some undesirable. Why would a dev spend weeks or months designing a class that nobody wants to play? That's a waste of time in my books. While true equality between the various classes is impossible, Darkpaw should at least strive for it. Bringing the classes that are barely played up to scratch would be a positive first step. Let's also consider the fact that there has to be 100% class equality when loot drops from mobs. Designers have to ensure that each mob has an equal chance of dropping loot for each class. So when rogues or Beastlords are barely played and rogue/BST loot keeps dropping, this causes a lot of angst and frustration for other classes when this happens. A failure to balance classes not only affects the poor slobs who still play those classes, it impacts the enjoyment of other classes because loot is always rotting. Not cool at all. Everyone wins when a MMORPG studio is committed to balancing classes.
It's most likely just a staffing issue. 100 out of 100 people agree that Rogues need re-vamping pre-TSS and realistically, the only way to do that is to give them a huge toolset via poisons. I'm not super familiar with "Live EQ" poisonmaking, but I do know its a lot better than classic stuff. That would be a good start.
There are also a lot of issues around Backstab. If I remember right, damage formulas changed, but (obviously) none of the old itemization changed to match the formulas. So Backstab is balanced around weapons with dedicated backstab damage modifiers, but those don't exist in older EQ. The Chaotic Stab AA line should honestly just be a passive granted at level 1. Back in Ye Olden Tymes, when the Orc Highway in Oasis was the hot place to be on Tuesday night, rogues got an extra main-hand attack when they clicked Backstab but weren't facing the mob's front. That was removed at some point; now Backstab goes on cooldown but does no damage. That means Rogues are extremely sensitive to mob facing pre-60-plus-AAs. Any random shift in facing can have a massive effect on DPS.
