Is the Challenger's Perk Creating the Experience We Want?

It's "happening".

You should probably let that grande latte kick in fully before you go on a forum rant.

It's almost like you're purposefully leaving out a critical part of what is different with this approach as opposed to normal bind rushing. Some type of perk that would completely negate the negatives of attempting a bind rush...

The loss of level perk isn't an exploit and being able to keep others from attacking the mob is because of encounter locking which isn't related to the loss of level perk.

No matter how you try to twist it the issue that is happening on Oakwynd is related to encounter locking and not the loss of level perk.

I mean, Waring isn't necessarily wrong when he says it is not an exploit.

An exploit was using an illusion to get through a locked door by standing right next to the door and then casting an illusion.

An exploit was casting Arcane Whisper on a named mob in a group of 3-10 other mobs and having only that named come to you (Arcane Whisper used to just lower your aggro).

An exploit is using the Z axis and targeting a mob below you and having only that mob run to you upstairs and bypassing other mobs on its way to you.

Six wizards running around in 2001 casting Manaburn on Kunark and Velious dragons was not an exploit. It was wrong, it created a lot of issues, it prevent raid forces from killing the dragons, and it showed Manaburn as having an unintended consequence to the original vision of the AA. But it was not an exploit.

2-3 characters w/no level loss perk bind rushing a dragon is not an exploit. It is wrong, it is clearly not intended, and it should be fixed to where the perk only fires once every 10 or 20 or 30 or 60 minutes (or some other kind of limitation). But it is not an exploit. Binding in Vox tunnel is not an exploit, and dying to Vox and not losing level 50 with the perk is not an exploit. Obviously some unintended gameplay has come about and should be reviewed and addressed, but to say it is an exploit is wrong.

Edit- could also remove bind spots in certain zones so that way no one can bind in Permafrost, for example. Or if in Kael you can bind at the zone in, but not further in the zone. Those 2-3 characters will have to run all the way to Tormax for example (and I know Oakwynd is not in Velious)

And they are very unlikely to ever nerf the perk that people are paying for, at best you can get them to change how FTE works or remove the ability to bind near those mobs. Afterall this is only applicable for a short period of time before it just gets replaced by people grouping or soloing the mobs in question. Why would they ever nerf the perk and reduce the income they get from it for something that is only a short term problem on a TLP that has FTE.

I have to wonder for those who are angry about bind rushing w/o losing a level, if in the past they were part of groups/raids that would kill steal mobs that were already engaged and now they cannot do that because of FTE.

I don't see the perk being changed, the more I think about it because that would affect those on Live servers who are not abusing the perk like those in early FTP do. I also don't see them removing the perk from early TLP servers like Oakwynd because I believe there are many players with the perk that are not abusing it like the 2-3 bind rush characters.

I can see them removing bind from zones and/or areas. I can see them adding a higher regen to the raid mobs in question so that it becomes impossible for 2-3 characters to do enough DPS to negate the regen and thus the mobs never get below 98 health or whatever. But Waring has a point- DBG is making money from this, technically they are doing nothing wrong (you can bind in Vox tunnel for example, you can respawn with some mana, you don't lose a level because of the perk), etc.

What is your problem with bind rushing? People have been doing that since the very early parts of the game and there is nothing wrong with it. The only apparent issue appears to be on FTE that the npc is locked and no one else can kill it. If someone is bind rushing on another server and non one else is around to kill the mob why does it matter?

Again, bind rushing has never been considered an exploit and people have been doing it since the early years. The only difference here is encounter locking and that is what you should be addressing not the loss of level perk.

But that isn't the only difference. Do you know what the word "only" actually means? Just because you have a crush on the perk doesn't exclude it from being a factor of how this is being pulled off.

What is required to make this form of exploting viable? First and foremost, not losing experience as the required amount of consecutive deaths to achieve the kill would quickly put a character below the effective level of being able to pull this off.

No one is talking about the original form of bind rushing, as you were forced to pay a price if you attempted it with both level loss and embarssment of using that cheese. On top of the fact that people could fail the attempt and compound the negatives of eating the consequences anyways. There are no consequences here at all.

You can do it on any server with the perk regardless of FTE. ANY SERVER WARING. Post the video showing us how this is possible without the perk as you said it was.

Again, people have been bind rushing mobs since the early era of Everquest and there is nothing wrong with it.

On other servers the only way they can bind rush a raid mob and kill it is if no one else is attempting to kill it. If no one else is trying to kill it why does it matter if they bind rush it to kill it?

Bind rushing is not an exploit, the loss of level perk is not an exploit and combining the two is not an exploit.

No matter how many times you try to make the claim using the perk to not lose levels as you bind rush isn't an exploit.

The only issue seems to be the encounter locking which prevents others from attempting the raid while the person is doing the bind rushing. The fix is either to remove the ability to bind near the mobs preventing bind rushing from happening or adjusting the locking so it unlocks faster.

So you admit bind rushing existed before FTE? So how exactly is a perk that allows bind rushing to be used to an extreme level specific to only FTE if the capability to bind rush to some extent already existed? If both bind rushing and the perk existed in the game prior to FTE, how is that an FTE-specific issue? It's almost like it only EXACERBATES the issue! You know, like the problem already existed, but FTE further weaponized it! Lightbulb moment potentially for you! (But most likely not based on your extensive history of not being able to put 2 and 2 together and only being able to understand things in singular vacuums).

Are you starting to realize the absurdity of your argument? This massive pit you dug yourself into? Do you see how blatantly dumb your argument is? You simply cannot simultaneously argue bind rushing existed for decades while also claiming the issue with bind rushing with the perk is an FTE issue...because it's not. It's very clearly a marriage of the bind rush strat and the perk allowing exploitation and when FTE is thrown on top, the campfire becomes an inferno.

Bind rushing itself isn't a problem. Personally, it's a dumb thing, but in a natural state, it has built-in mechanics to dissuade people from doing it extensively EG losing levels, being unable to cast higher level spells, level gap between target and yourself results in spells being near impossible to land, stat loss, inability to use gear with level reqs, and eventually, with enough lost levels, the absolute incapability to kill the raid encounter.

The perk allows players to nullify these built-in mechanics, use that to their advantage, and beat encounters well beyond initial raid design (and general game design) IE exploit mechanics to gain an unfair advantage over the people who don't do this. This is the problem. The synergy between bind rushing and the perk allows for exploitation and acts which break the game's code of conduct rules (zone disruption). Let me break this down into child terms:

Bind rushing (in a vacuum) - OK
Perk (in a vacuum) - OK
Bind rushing + Perk = Exploit
Reason - Because coupled together it circumvents other game mechanics and intended design allowing a player to have an advantage over the general playerbase.

I agree that 2-3 people should not be able to kill a dragon at level 50 that is designed to be killed by 54 or however many characters it should take in 2023. I agree it is wrong and that a change should be made- higher regen on the dragon, remove binding as the two options I would explore.

I don't understand how this breaks the game's code of conduct rules for zone disruption, which seems to be at the heart of your issue. To my analysis, 2-3 characters are attempting to kill a dragon- silly enough to think, but nothing wrong with attacking an attack able mob. They do not train, and are first to engage. So far so good. They die, it has happened to all of us. They respawn at bind, which they put near the dragon. OK. They engage in the dragon again, get some hits or spells in, die again. So far they have not done one single thing wrong in the game and encounter.

How are they disrupting the zone? If there are too many corpses for your PC (or mine or anyone else's) then /hidecorpseall and problem solved. There is no game law or rule that says you can only have so many corpses at one time. There is no rule or law that says you have to have at least 24 people engaged on a dragon- although that could be another way to fix it, the dragon doesn't go active until 24 characters are on hate list. That would definitely prevent 2-3 from being able to win.

I don't understand what your problem with it is, and how it affects you. Did you bring a raid of 54 to a dragon and right before you engaged 2-3 others did so, which locked you out of the encounter? Welcome to Oakwynd I guess.

It does two things.

1. Causes exploitation of game mechanics.

2. Causes potential for zone disruption. How? Corpses cause bandwidth. Bandwidth causes lag. Enough lag causes zone crashing. Ever mass murder zones for slayer like blackburrow or the warrens? Ever see what happens with all the bodies unhidden? Game crippling lag beyond recognition and in some instances, absolute zone crashing (It's happened to me before, a few times).

Premeditated actions (bind rushing and dying and corpse creation) you know will have adverse effects in the gameplay (lag and potential for crashing zones) of others is textbook definition of zone disruption under the Play Nice Policy in their Code of Conduct.

Not everyone has the luxury of turning corpses off lol. You ever like...rez somebody? Drag a body? Oh I don't know...any basic post wipe mechanic?

I'm not even on Oakwynd so maybe just stop trying to throw out random deflections? It doesn't serve as any benefit to anyone. It actually makes your argument look bad. I expect better from a ROTE member such as myself.

How many corpses are there from 1 person? I'm seeing 14 in that picture, but and a lot less of others.

Why would you not /hidecorpseall if you are not part of the 2-3 person raid force? You say that the many deaths and many corpses will cause lag, I agree. But for those not part of the 2-3 person force, you do have the luxury of hiding corpses. And in all honesty, I am quite certain those 2-3 characters would prefer to not die 10-100 times each if they can do so. I don't think they are bind rushing a dragon for the sole purpose of creating enough corpses to generate zone lag, but rather they are bind rushing a dragon to win and get its loot between only 2-3 players instead of 54. Selfish? Yes. Within the parameters of the game? Yes. Exploit? No. Wrong? Yes. Cheesy? Yes. Bannable? No.

No I am saying the issue would be with FTE and the encounter being locked. If it wasn't for that anyone else in the zone would be able to kill that mob and it would be impossible to bind rush it with low numbers to kill it.

You keep blaming the problem on the perk when it is the locking that prevents others from killing it and letting them bind rush it.

That is the whole point and purpose of FTE- first one to engage locks the encounter. That is not a problem and is not going away.

IMHO the problem isn't FTE or bind rushing or the perk. It is the ability to bind right by the dragon to allow all of this to occur. It is also a regen on a dragon that is low enough to where 2-3 characters can zerg the encounter by throwing mass bodies at it and it eventually will die. Fix those two (or one) and 2-3 level 50 characters will no longer be able to kill a dragon.

You say they are not going to change the perk. I agree. They are also not going to change FTE. So let's focus on what they can change and call that the problem.

Is spawn rushing with guild banners also an exploit? because that was a thing from the onset of TBS. You could just put a banner in the room with the boss, or adjacent to the boss, and teleport from the guild hall after death to keep fighting a mob.

I agree with you on that, I don't see it as a problem, just trying to suggest a possible solution that they might actually consider. And to be honest until it was mentioned I didn't really think of the easy fix of changes to binding near raid mobs.

I didn't really have that strong of an opinion on this subject since most players, including myself, didn't really know it existed or that it was being exploited.

I do find it remarkable how many people in this thread valiantly defend this perk as something that must be protected at all costs, like we didn't play this game for 30 years without it. It also makes Clerics even less appealing to play because my friend told me that his guild requires the perk and that they won't resurrect anyone who dies under any circumstances.

As someone who mained Cleric on P99 and felt that it was the most rewarding class to main because of
how sought after they were, playing a Cleric on TLP really left a bad taste in my mind because I quickly realized that everyone already has a boxed Cleric and that there's essentially no reason to play this class as anything other than a box. But now that's really doubled down on because resurrection becomes even less relevant.

Shrugs, I just don't understand why anyone can justify this perk existing unless they are A) Exploiting it B) the company who profits from it.

And that's the problem, it feels truly pay-to-win. I'm fine with in-game transactions, I've bought many illusions, titles, and even a few kronos here and there, but when you have a paid perk that is so powerful many players and guilds consider it mandatory, you're starting to go down a slippery slope.

I feel like soon the company will be selling Cloak of Flames directly, heh. And it still cracks me up when my TLP friends make fun of me for playing WoW and call it pay to win. WoW doesn't come close to the level of P2W currently demonstrated in EQ (to tell you the truth, I've never played another MMO that had this level of P2W).

Nowadays it's really hard for players to find a group after level 33 because a large majority of players just AFK level (which should be illegal), you are better off buying a Krono than spending days of your life farming an item worth 500 platinum (assuming it's not camped indefinitely by an AFK player), and you're at a severe disadvantage if you don't pay for certain perks, buy clarity bottles, or have multiple accounts that you box.

As a P99 player none of this appeals to me. A large part of why I fell in love with EverQuest again after not thinking about it for 20+ years was discovering P99 Green and feeling truly challenged by an MMO for the first time since my childhood.

TLP feels like the opposite of that, and makes World of Warcraft feel like a truly hardcore game where you actually have to grind out your gear yourself, and that the only things you can buy with real life money are crappy BOEs that aren't competitive at all, and are something only an actual noob would buy.

Edit: Also this completely destroys the point of being a skilled player in this game. I've solo'd some pretty crazy stuff with my Enchanter and it felt super challenging and rewarding to pull it off. Why would I do that when I can just make a Wizard, bind in the corner, and do the same content by pressing 1 button while looking away watching YouTube the entire time. Like part of the charm of EverQuest was it was a challenging game, and that the skill cap could be really high. When you completely remove that, I feel like you might as well just go play a modern MMO with better graphics, because even they require some skill level to complete end-game content. Like imagine going on a raid in WoW where you kill every mob no matter what, as long as you set your Hearthstone in the same zone. It's pure madness.