Mischief - State of Epic 1.5/2.0 Camps (Bard Epic Dire Animals, Warrior EW 2.0 Step & Others)

First and foremost, the EQ Dev Team has done an exceptional job over the last few years tuning Epic 1.0 quests to refine steps that proved exceptionally contested, toxic, and difficult for many players to complete due to lengthy spawn timers, the lack of picks, and other factors. With Mischief proving highly successful and maintaining a large population into Omens, the player base is observing that a few Epic 1.5/2.0 steps may need to be examined and refined to eliminate the type of toxic, difficult, or unpleasant gameplay that warranted changing certain epic 1.0 quest steps (the game has changed much in 20 years!).

Although we can respectfully disagree over whether changing certain contested epic 2.0 steps that (but at least support forcing 20-40 person picks) would trivialize epic 2.0 quests, there are a few steps that are simply not tuned to the current population size and will bar a large number of subscribers from completing their epics for the foreseeable future (and possibly lead to burnout or contribute to revenue loss, woe).

Many in the community would appreciate if the Dev Team could review and consider modifying these steps in some fashion to help players enjoy the game and progress through the quests (e.g., creating picks for zones, lowering pick thresholds, reducing spawn timers, allowing multiple questers to get credit, etc.):

(1) Bard 1.5 Epic – Dire griffon, Dire Kodiak, dire leech, and dire panda (see https://www.eqprogression.com/bard-1-5-epic-prismatic-dragon-blade/, steps 8-11). These mobs are all on lengthy 4-6+/- hour timers, which has led to frustrating exchanges for many bards already. The Dire Kodiak in Jagged Pine has proven especially problematic, as there are no picks for that particular zone (other zones likely have large picks or no picks [barring the dire griffon in NK, which has a smaller pick size]). To make matters worse, these quest items are not no-drop and could very well become a kronolord money pit, depriving bards who need from a chance to complete their epics. Devs may also want to consider that bards are an extremely popular box class with a high population of active players. At minimum, the Dev Team may want to consider revising spawn timers or changing pick sizes, so guilds can coordinate and help bards get past these pesky steps. Fighting to bash weak animals in newbie zones is not exactly “epic.”

(2) Warrior 2.0 Epic - Eastern Wastes, Larnik the Recluse (see https://www.eqprogression.com/warrior-2-0-epic-guide-kreljnoks-sword-of-eternal-power/, step 5). Eastern Wastes supports picks with approximately 60 players in the zone; however, the conditions that spawn this mob can take up to 45 minutes to trigger (and the mob is on a ~24 hour timer in OW zones and is not visible on ranger/bard/druid track). With many NA guilds sharing common prime time raid times, this has created a bottleneck and many guilds are stumbling over each others’ toes to force picks and help their warriors progress. Like the bard 1.5 dire animals, Larnik is a weak, cowardly gnome that can be steam rolled by 3 to 6 players (not epic!).

(3) Monk 2.0 Epic – Ocean of Tears, Kaiaren (see https://www.eqprogression.com/monk-2-0-epic-guide-transcended-fistwraps-of-immortality/, step 10). Kaiaren is on a lengthy 5-7 hour timer in OOT (which requires 50-60 to force a pick). Although these conditions are not nearly as brutal as the Bard and Warrior epics above, it is still a very contested bottleneck for monks, which are one of the most popular and numerous classes on the server. This quest is also not very well positioned for DPS racing, as a monk who turns in the quest items to trigger the fight can lose those items (requiring another 3-7 hours of questing to obtain them again) if they lose the DPS race. Devs may want to consider lowering the pick threshold or allowing multiple monks to get credit (similar to how the Zerker epic fight in Sebilis is performed).

The list above may not highlight all problematic epic 1.5/2.0 quest steps on a server the size of Mischief, but hopefully this might get the conversation started and allow the Dev Team to examine whether changes could help improve the gameplay experience for everyone. Thank you!

Agreed.

I don't see 4-6 hour timers being too unreasonable. You're looking at over 200+ times killed in era without accounting for picks. Anything pushing 8+ hours needs to be revised a bit. The warrior one especially considering it's an event that may not always trigger after the 24 hours have elapsed. You're probably looking at < 80 total kills in main pick of Larnik in era. It's an absolute nightmare.

Also, this isn't an exclusive Mischief issue so I'm not sure why it's being portrayed as such.

The problem here is very much a product of the population size of Mischief, which is significantly higher than many other TLPs that reached Omens. Although you may personally not find 4-6 hours unreasonable, there is a substantial portion (if not a super majority) of the player base with other work obligations, family obligations, and other hobbies that find the prospect of camping extremely contested, trivial mobs for 24 hours (Warrior, EW) or 4-6 hours (others) unreasonable and a waste of time. This is the year 2022, and most players are not teens anymore who can afford to waste hours literally staring at blank walls. There is a reason why extremely lengthy contested camp mechanics have completely disappeared from MMORPGs over the last decade, and why many epic 1.0 steps have been changed over the years: it's simply not a fun or enjoyable gameplay experience for the overwhelming majority of players.

I don't even bother with Epics lmao too contested.

Sounds like at the very least the monk guy should be loot locked.

I will say that the last week working on epics for my character, guildmates, and friends, It has been the most toxic cesspool of debauchery that I've ever witnessed on a TLP in any era.

A lot of it has to do with the population, and the krono lords not really going to the new TLPs (when normally they are gone, or on the way out by now), but it's been absolutely disgusting. I've seen training, I've seen 30 box crews swarm over 1 group mobs just to KS them to sell the item, I've seen more BDA's cast and trade attempts on other groups in the past week than I have since starting TLPs in 2016.

I'm all for any changes that take away stupid time-locked bottlenecks that promote toxic behavior to win out over others. Either that, or start * locking 2.0 NPC's when triggered.

Just a little advice, DPG. Long respawn toxic camps does not = Epic.

Really dumb mechanics here. Not interesting or difficult, only a "refuse" sock time waster that adds some RNG glitchiness.

Just make him a static no-agro spawn that respawns KoS with the giants when you hand in the map.

100%. Making some minor changes will really keep folks around on Mischief for longer. These steps are creating super toxic community encounters.

Before raids, for some of the really contested stuff we will bring everyone to a zoneline then all zone in forcing a new pick. We have done it for the Warrior epic in EW several times and the Monk epic in OOT.

I do feel like people are being scumming with each other and it seems to be the same 3 guilds that are perma camping stuff (murk glider egg in RCoD, there's a shaman epic drop as well) which is causing hardships for people not in large guilds. I was helping a guild do the wizard epic in PoN and after 6 hours they got their spawn, so a couple of us ran there and no sooner did we tag it, we had a player with a box Army show up and attempt to KS us.

I don't care if someone wants to box 10 characters, I don't care if someone wants to camp something for 24 hours. What I do care about is when people are intentionally blocking players from doing their quests or trying to KS/train people. DBG needs to get with the program and start hitting some of these people with bans.

I was going to make post similar to this the other night, but I completely agree any mobs that you hand things into need to be loot lock to that player like the epic 1.0 stuff epically with the way the 1.5/2.0 are gated behind specific steps.

All of the spawn times for these mob need to be adjusted to be similar to Kragsmash, Keeper where they are just on the normal zone respawn timer. at this point, this goes for epic 1.0 mobs as well.

*waves from thornblade*

Yes, please consider some minor changes to some of these zones or NPCs to promote fairness, and reduce toxic play. Lower zone pick thresholds, or somehow locking credit to quest turn in / hail text lines with NPCs would solve a lot, and have very little impact (if any) on overall difficulty of the quests. Shared credit sounds nice, but could be exploited and cheapen the value of the 2.0, so I'm not so supportive of that.

*giggle*

If someone waves, but there's nobody else there to see it, did that person really wave at all?

Well the Dire Kodiak was there to see it at least

Every epic mob my guild goes for has been up I think par from one and we just spawned a pick, cuz we have friends and not just boxes, and killed it there /shrug.

But we want all the pros of a high pop server with none of the cons

Sounds like a warper to me.

Found the 2nd