What is Darkpaw doing to Bring New Players to EverQuest?

EQ3. EQN. ... I have not even bothered to look at EQ2. This from a returning player that was absent for 20 years.

[quote="Cicelee, post: 4113099, member: 2025”]
Here are the top five selling video games of 1999- Pokémon red/green/blue/yellow, Final Fantasy 8, Pokémon gold/silver, Super Smash Bros, Donkey Kong 64. How many first time, brand new players are playing those five specific titles in 2022? How many players are playing those five .[/quote]

Uhh, 4 of those 5 titles do continual releases that sell 30+ million copies. The remakes of FF and Pokemon are massively popular. Smash barely changes between iterations.

Test buff to level 25 won't help people that much and there is useful information that you can learn while doing the tutorial. If you wanted to jump players in level I would suggest to a higher level with more benefits.

You can start in the original cities as long as you are a paying members. Only free to play players are stuck in Crescent Reach.

Without redesigning the game to be more friendly to solo players I am not sure what they can do.

How many of those former players are going to return and why do you need to focus on attracting existing player. The problem with the sub 100 game is that there is a lack of players in that level range and that has more to do with how old the game is then anything else.

Uhh, 4 of those 5 titles do continual releases that sell 30+ million copies. The remakes of FF and Pokemon are massively popular. Smash barely changes between iterations.[/quote]

Exactly.

People play the newest and latest. They play Madden 22, not Madden 99. They play Call of Duty Black Ops whatever the latest release is. They don't play Call of Duty from 2010 or whenever it was first released. No one is playing Smash released in 1999, they are playing Smash 2022 or within the past year or two.

If someone comes up to a brand new gamer and says "Hey you can play Madden 99 or Madden 2022 for six hours a week", what do you think that new player is going to play?

No new players are coming to Everquest. A game that came out in 1999. The people who still play, that is the demographic DPG needs to maintain.

And do you think Electronic Arts is trying to get people to play Madden 99? Do you think they are fretting about how they sold zero copies last year of Madden 99? Of course not. They have moved onto worrying about Madden 22. They know Madden 99 has died and is sunset. And so will Everquest at some point in the future.

EA understands and accepts. DPG knows at some point it will happen. Why can't some of this playerbase come to that realization as well?

You’re picking terrible examples, Madden games are comparable to EQ expansions, roster updates to sell each year. Pokémon changed less than EQ over two decades just offered some roster updates and 3D pixels. GTA V, still insanely popular and that was released for PS3. FF14 had to stop selling, it’s newest expansion because it ran out of digital keys. Skyrim, still sells millions of copies for re-release.

EQ releases expansions that builds upon itself. It didn’t stop development in 1999.

Explain how OSRS grows its playerbase, while looking and playing worse than EQ?

Uhh, 4 of those 5 titles do continual releases that sell 30+ million copies. The remakes of FF and Pokemon are massively popular. Smash barely changes between iterations.[/quote]
You are making his points. All of the games he mentioned and what you are talking about are brand new games in those franchises. You are not selling millions or even thousands of copies of the original released games. You are selling entirely new games. None of the original games from that long ago are selling to someone who has no association with the franchises at all. That is Cicelee's point.

You're lying to yourself. Madden and Pokémon games drastically changed every year, you got very different games and how the games looked and played changed with each release. Further, these releases are the furthest thing from expansions of the prior games. You don't have to play through the Madden '99 or Madden 2000 games to get something your team in Madden '22. Players don't need to know anything at all about Madden '99 to play and succeed in Madden '22. Similarly, with Pokémon you don't have to have the older Pokémon games to advance in the newer ones, you can get most everything from the current gen of the games. Brand new players can start with any new current Pokémon game and be fine.

GTA V is only popular still because they haven't released GTA VI; additionally your GTA V example is bad, because the majority of its sales are to the same people who already owned it. People have just been buying GTA V again on new consoles. They are not new players buying them as a rule. You might get a few here or there. GTA V is not being marketed to new players when a new port comes out. It is being marketed to existing or previous players of the game on that ecosystem to go buy the new version and play it on this new console.

Madden 2022 still has stuff that says Madden 2019 in it. Pokémon reuses the sprites. Cic’s whole comparison is terrible, because those studios build there entire revenue model around annual releases. FIFA, Madden, Pokemon, etc need you to buy the new game each year to start from 0, especially for the Ultimate Team/Card packs.

Cic needs to compare live service games that are similar in business structure to EQ, such as OSRS, WoW, Destiny, etc.

The games are fundamentally different. They do not include everything in the previous game. You cannot have the previous game and import the new info into it. You are still not getting it. All of those games are different than the previous game. Does the Madden 2019 game have things from Madden 2022 put in it after 2022 comes out? Reusing code is different from something being an expansion.

Cicelee's point was completely that people don't buy the old stuff, they buy the new. The mission of anyone with an older game that has had a long life is to keep the people have been playing your game and buying stuff for it to continue to do that. Not to entice new players to come play the game. Trying to entice new players to an old game is a losing proposition from the start.

Yes, people buy the new game because that’s the business model. EQ is designed to be long term, and you need to compare it to other games as a service rather than single release combined with DLC.

How does OSRS continue to bring in new players?

SOE was the guinea pig for the games as a service model and demonstrated that popular titles retain their viability despite launching a modernized version. On the contrary, the updated game EQ2 or RuneScape 3 fail to move the community.

People don’t really care about graphics, WoW, Roblox, Pokemon, Minecraft, Mobile Games, etc all show gameplay and community matter more. The reason why EQ doesn’t tend to atttact new players are that people think the game is dead and the community is dead outside of the game.

If EQ want's to get new players (young people) it's going to have to modernize the graphics for one. I would like that, but hey, I like my high elf simulator dang it. Better looking characters, yippie Skippy.

Right now, all the low level zones are ghost towns. That of course will have to change to get new people to play the game. But how? This game is an old dinosaur and a relic from the past. Young people who like this type of game congregate at the newest adventure available. EQ, even with new graphics is the same old game with the same path traveled countless times. Nothing new or cool to see that hasn't been seen a million times.

I see complaints about the user interface frequently. Valid opinions, but anyway. I like the UI. I like having my keyboard mapped out so my mage team can work in unity. Both mages have separate mapping, so there's a lot of button mashing and possible confusion. At first it was a learning experience. Now it's sweet music. I dread when the UI gets a makeover latter this year.

You have any proof that OSRS actually brings in legitimate new players? As in people who have not played the game at any time before? That's what is being talked about here. Actual new players, not returning players or extra accounts for existing players. True new players.

EQ2 is not anything close to a failure. It isn't as successful as EQ long term, but it is still going with a healthy population. You're dislike of it does not make it a failure.

WoW has always been all about the graphics and making the game to the mainstream. Even they are not really getting new players at this point, they are retaining the playerbase they have and enticing the ones who left to come back. Also, the WoW community has been considered toxic for a long time. Perhaps that has changed in recent years, but at its peak it had one of the worst communities for an MMORPG. WoW graphics still look good for its age, and this is due to the fact that WoW was after new programing languages came out with capabilities that are not part of what EQ is built on. At the same time the art style in WoW is far more cartoony, which also makes it easier for it to look pretty to the eyes.

Pokemon, if you were to put out a new Pokemon game today, but give it graphics from 1999, 2002, or 2004; they would not sell anywhere near as good as they would with the newer prettier graphics they have in the modern games. Modern Pokemon games look like modern games of the same style.

Roblox and Minecraft are about what you can do with the games, more so than how you do it. People also spend obscene amounts of money on new computer systems just to make Minecraft look better. Both games spend time creating things, and that is what keeps people going to it.

Mobile games as a rule have crap gameplay; they are popular because they are mobile, look pretty, and/or are time killer games.

The primary reason that EQ doesn't attract new players is because it is a 23 year old game that at best looks like it might be 18 years old. People see the visuals and are like, that doesn't look as good as this game or that game. Because if it was about gameplay and community, then EQ never would have lost 1st place. Instant gratification is bad gameplay. WoW was pretty much instant gratification when it came out, and it looked shinier.

Are graphics the be all end all, no, but brand new players are not going to go try a game that looks 18-23 years old when they could just as easily get a game that is brand new and does pretty much the same thing.

This is not even considering the amount of money that would need to be spent to advertise the game to new players as opposed to existing or returning players. That would be the same as if you were trying to market a brand new game, but with a lower click through rate.

What does any new player need?

Other players.

The answer is right there. New players need the option to jump in with the rest of the player population when an expansion launches, the probelm is EQ is a knowledge-based game, with no knowledge of how the class you pick works you are terribale at playing that class.

So for new players to join the game & stick around EQ probably needs a few things to happen.

1. A way for new players to play alongside existing players,
Sure, TLP exists but there needs to be an option for live servers too. My own suggestion is a side-kick system, the devs probably aren't looking at the idea right now because modernisation of the game has to be done beforehand, the other option is Heroic Upgrades, but new players, even Heroic Upgraded ones are still not going to have anything other than an uphill struggle to find groups, Probably some server merges are also needed, in spite of fthe resistance to them on many established live servers, maybe a "group finder" style tech that operates cross-server would help but again that's a big tech investment in coder time & perhaps also a cost in hardware support.

2. The EQ player-community at large would need to relinquish their cherished mantra of "I won't group with noobs", and that's a change a majority of players would absolutely refuse.
Most they feel it is incumbent upon new players to discover how to play their classes and will only group with them once they've moved beyond their stumbling first steps.
Kind of like a grumpy old man/woman who tells a child to get up & walk but offers them no help to do so, no guidance & rather than play with the child walks away & ignores them, they would prefer to go play bowls with the other grumpy old people.
After all they will think, if the kid is ignored enough they will stop playing. For Cicelee & others the whole "new player problem" solves itself that way.
Why does the community need to take on that burden?
Because creating a tutorial for high level classes is very difficult for teh devs to make, the last attempt at that was the 85 Heroic Quest, a similar quest adapted to & designed for successive Upgrades is an increasingly more difficult & expensive task, Darkpaw likely still would do a poorer job of that than the existiong player-community could do - were they interested, and a few do make good videos etc & post them up on youtube, but that's never going to be as valuable as what they would learn playing alongside people who give a crap if they stick with the game.

During TOV I had a noob experience. I was new to boxing and I wanted a challenge so I decided to got to Kael. Another mage asked if he could join, so I invited him along. I didn't know if this mage was going to real good or not, I really didn't care either way. I was hoping to enjoy his company.

I noticed after a while that the mobs weren't dying any quicker so I took a sneak peek at my Gamparse. Oh my, he was doing next nothing for DPS. Maybe 50K at best, most of the time in the 20's. So I went full burn on both mages and posted the DPS results. All he said was "overpowered" and left shortly after that.

So it's not just experienced players not wanting to group with noobs. The noobs (at least this one) might think the EQ vets make the game too easy, so they want to group with others of the same ability. What would he think of me know that I know how to box my mages and both are max level and max AA's? He probably would delete his toon and go play WOW.

You aren't a noob, so no you did not have a noob experience.

You may have been new to Mage & new to boxing but you understand the mechanics & systems of the game very well & transferred the knowledge to boxing maybe even to a new class.

Or you meant the other player was a noob.

Now what you could have done is asked what they were doing, checked their gear, or even offered them a few tips if you know a bit about their class & how to play it, many veterans are quite well versed in other classes too. Maybe they were a sloppy or lazy player, or maybe they simply lacked the knowledge.
Rather than seeing an opportunity to belittle them through a parse you could have seen it as an opprtunity to help them be a better player. If you didn't know the class they played well you could have asked someone you know who does what rotation of spells/abilities they use and passed that onto them & see if they do better.

If we want others to play better we can choose to be selfish, indifferent or supportive, maybe my experience of being in leadership makes me choose the latter but I know the importance of recruiting, recruits & of encouraging players to play better, to perform better & in doing so enjoy the game at a deeper & more rewarding level.
I also enjoy seeing players who were not geared well getting nice gear, who were not playing well start topping parses from time to time and who struggled to get groups be in demand for them as a result of that knowledge-sharing & mentorship.

Holy buckets, you totally misinterpreted my post. I never said I was the noob, jeez. I guess I should've said I had adventure with a noob. Sorry for confusing you. I was just trying to have a fun conversation with you, not a lecture because you think I'm mean, which I wasn't. Heck, I even gave the guy a nice item that I didn't need anymore. I was just giving you a different perspective on this. Not the usual I don't play with noobs paradigm.

I wasn't sure which is why I said

Even if you were not intentionally being mean, the act of confronting a player you just met with parses when they didn't ask for them is hard to see as being kind. Giving them the item was kind though.
Still, I think it is good you gave them an invite.

Perhaps I will also say a few words.

Hello everyone, I'm 28 years old, I'm from Russia and I started playing Everquest quite recently. I had two attempts before, but I quit the game due to timezones. On the European server, I have no problem with this.

I tried not to play alone, I invited friends and just my twitter followers to play with me. Despite the age of the game, I know and believe that this game can be a lot of fun even for beginners.

Even though I'm the youngest in the guild and generally quite young relative to most players, I'm no stranger to old games. I'm a big old game enthusiast and that's probably why Everquest didn't turn me off. That's why I still play. But my friends don't. Some of them quit the game at level 10, getting out of the tutorial. Someone lasted two locations and quit the game at level 20. But in our discord these guys don't chat anymore and they don't enter the game.

I admit that the root of the problem is that the game does not lead the player by the hand for some time. It worked in WoW, it worked in FF14. But I'm not sure if this will work here. In PoK, players can go through detailed tutorials, but none of my friends knew about PoK. Yes, the game gives a hint in a letter and a note. But in places the game is not intuitive. Older hardcore players will not see this as a problem and I won't judge them, I understand them perfectly, but the new generation of players is growing up on other games that interact with players in a different way.

I believe there are a lot of players who could enjoy EverQuest, but right now they don't have the motivation to play the game. And most potential players about the game and do not know.

I'm glad that I was able to partially understand the game and play with nice people from all over the world. I appreciate it. I hope that I'm not the only newbie and there are still those who discovered the game recently and enjoy it a lot.

I think at this point, it seems like the bulk of the EQ community is made up of min-maxers and end game raiders. Back at the beginning there was a wide variety in the community and many different play styles and reasons for being in the game. But over time, it seems like the player base is made up of the people who are experts in the game. That's not surprising after 20 years, but it would be like expecting NBA pros to go down to the corner lot to help people get better at basketball.

And it's important to remember that not everyone wants to min-max to be an end game raider. Some people like exploring and having fun. Back at the beginning, lots of players were like that and they would group together and have fun. But a new player now just looking to have fun isn't really going to be welcome in a group today made up of people who try to be at max DPS at all times. If an NBA'er went to the corner lot, he would likely be trying to get those players to NBA level. But if those players just like shooting hoops and goofing around, they might be happy just playing around at that level. I would describe myself like that. I'm just playing EQ to have some fun during the pandemic. I don't really want to do all the work it takes to play at max level. I'm sure I'd be a terrible group member these days, but playing at max efficiency is not really a priority for me.

One way that players can help noobs is by MGB buffing in the PoK/GL. Thank you so much to all that do that. Those buffs have helped me immensely in being able to progress on my own. It helps those noobs make meaningful progress and get to a level where they can group normally.

And yet that happens, many professional sports players coach (& not just kids teams either) during or after their careers for the love of the sport, and to "give back" to their communities. There are unlikely to be a massive number of kids who will go on from there to be pros but most of them would probably have a lot of fun & learn a lot anyway, and fun is why we play.

I used to study Karate & a big part of getting better at it is teaching it, when you teach a technique you have to pay attention to all the little things that make that work, posture, balance, foot placement, movement pattern, so that your students pick up the technique properly & learn good execution, and the act of doing this focuses your own technique allowing you to perform it better yourself, you also ideally improve your patience and your own self-discipine too, there's a reinforcement loop at play. And it can be fun.