I decided to repost this in hopes of some constructive dialog. It is my belief that the "casual vs hardcore" is the very root of most of these threads relating to class balance and nerfing. Personally i am interested in what the community here would find an acceptable path forward. Anyways.. Here are my thoughts. This a very complicated issue that I personally see continued in various threads. It now rears it's head in the form of shaman/druid dots. If when you play EQ you raid, max trade skills, AA, and abilities. Also research class and game mechanics. Then roll that knowledge into hotkeys and parse yourself to truly maximize your character. You will dominate group content. This is unavoidable. I find it discouraging to see people who more than likely do none of the above advocate making group content less difficult or in my opinion want the bar lowered. While this is a option.. It will only make the gap that much wider and more disparaging for the casual player. So where is Suffer going with this?? Try this thought experiment... Say Daybreak was to go the opposite way with this dot change and increase the dot damage by 45-55%. Now that casual player at lvl 110 in group gear with half of his or her available AA can roam around a group zone and completely dominate like a raid geared and maximized character. Casual players rejoice!!! Right until a group or 2 of raiders come in the zone to farm gear for alts now the gap is wider and the raiders dominate like never before. My main point is this. To use the near famous Drogba swarm video as a example. If you tune content or class power to a lower common denominator casuals will be happy right until Drogba or an equivalent comes in and swarms 50+ mobs in front of you, then you get upset and scream balance. I don't have any easy answers for this situation or future situations nor do i think Daybreak does. These are just observations i have made in my 16 years traveling thru Norrath.
I'd like to see how the power curve from group gear to raid gear has fluctuated over the years. Like consider starting with PoP and going forward from there.
Good post and good observations. The only answer is something most don't want to hear...Git Gud. This is the only way you can have your cake and eat it too. You could also say..."You keep what you kill" Seriously, that is the only answer. It is the only answer in all things of this nature whether it be a game or a job in real life. When we lower the bar, we lower those under the bar eventually. People want the same things everyone else has, but either they don't have the ability or they don't have the desire. They still want those things that are the rewards for ability or desire however. This is what our societies have evolved to. Take the words of Neil Peart... Waiting for the winds of change To sweep the clouds away Waiting for the rainbow's end To cast it's gold your way Countless ways You pass the days Waiting for someone to call And turn your world around Looking for an answer To the question you have found Looking for An open door You don't get something for nothing You can't have freedom for free You won't get wise With the sleep still in your eyes No matter what your dreams might be What you own is your own kingdom What you do is your own glory What you love is your own power What you live is your own story In your head is the answer Let it guide you along Let your heart be the anchor And the beat of your own song You don't get something for nothing You can't have freedom for free You won't get wise With the sleep still in your eyes No matter what your dreams might be
But what if you're already good and have the best group gear you can get? There is no getting better than that without raiding. As usual "Git Gud" is just BS. The disparity exists, it needs to exist, but it also has to be actively managed as new gear comes out or it becomes unbalanced.
I'm unsure what to take from the OP.... It kinda sounded like "unless you raid be happy with what you get" Which misses the point that the group game is made for group geared people who don't raid. Group content designed to give a challenge to raid geared people is innately bad content - because you are making group lvl content that requires raiding. RoS took a step in that direction, which is deadly for this game. What is needed is either: 1. A way raid geared people don't disrupt group content (unlikely) 2. Close the gap by significantly lowering the strength of raid gear/abilities vs group gear/abilities. (easier to do)
I mean, they have things that allow you to participate in areas that are specifically instanced for your group - unfortunately they do seem on the harder tuned side for group geared players.
Yes, group rewards should be attainable by good groups. That means playing the group game at a high level in group gear you strive to get. Group rewards shouldn't be rewarded to people who molo, solo or duo unless those people are exceptional at what they do. Group rewards also shouldn't be handed out like Halloween candy. It should be fair and based good group play. It shouldn't be easy for a person boxing 6 accounts, because almost all, if not all those players aren't getting the most use of each character in that group. Git Gud isn't BS. It is a fact of life. Don't you understand? If you make it so any Tom, or Boner can show up and blow through progession tasks or zones, people will leave the game as it will become a joke. It is a slippery slope that degrades the game over time. When you give everything away, you lower the bar, you reduce ambition and skill. Group rewards should be fair and attainable by "GROUPS" where each member has reached a certain level of skill and gear in order for the "GROUP" to achieve desired result.
You misunderstand me, "git gud" is just a stupid thing people say rather than having an actual discussion about the specifics of something. Maybe that wasn't your intent, but that's how it's generally been used in the past. This thread is about the difference in capabilities between group and raid geared players, and how you can balance things for the group geared players but even they will get upset when a raid geared player comes in and stomps the same content. How does "get gud" fit in with that? It doesn't. Group geared players, even at their best, will struggle with content that raid geared players can half-afk and still beat. The point is that you can't avoid this situation, and the OP said as much, yet it's still an issue that comes up. Class A in group gear sees Class B in raid gear and says "Class B is overpowered." Or Class A in raid gear tells Class B in group gear that he should be able to do certain content easily and then Class B fails miserably and gets upset. I don't think there is anything they should do about it other than continue to try and keep the balance against the content proper for both group and raid geared players to enjoy it. In the end, people who say "git gud" usually have no idea how "gud" the person they are saying it is. Again, maybe that wasn't your intent, but it's a loaded statement at this point.
I was using that term with tongue in cheek. It is not my intent as a mindless reply, that is why I went on to expound on the subject. Getting better is how you get the things you want that are available. People say "git gud" because other whine here on the forum about things they want but won't put forth the effort. If a person is good at playing their class and in a group with other competent players and they have developed their characters to be able to play in the content they are in, then they should be able to achieve those rewards. We both know much of what is posted here isn't this. There is always going to be a gap between a good player that raids and a good player that only groups. Nothing you can do about that. Group rewards should be attainable by good groups with developed characters for that content. A group of raiders will make the same stuff trivial. Nothing you can do about that and groupers will have to be happy with their reflections at that point. Group content should be fair and achievable by good groups, end of story. It shouldn't be achievable with poor groups or poor group play. They shouldn't care if a good raid group sleep walks it as long as it is fair for them to achieve.
The content is easy in group gear if you put forth effort. What raid gear allows is for you to do it with less optimal groups or fewer people. Yes, raid gear has an advantage. No, it is not required in the least bit.
People say "git gud" when they think others are whining here on the forum. Usually they are wrong and just glossing over the issue. And they generally have no idea how much effort or skill the person they are saying it to has. It's worn out at this point and it's condescending to start with. I think we actually disagree on that. Many posts that are reasonable get the "git gud" post from tough guys who need to show how much better they are than everybody else. I know that wasn't your intent, but as I said, the term is loaded now because it's been used that way so much for so long. That's pretty much what the OP said. And the point is that this is true, but complaints still happen, so that's why this thread exists.
Often times people posting come with the perspective of knowing what various classes are capable of. When you're seeing under performance, it's not condescending to call people on it. It's truthful. Effort does not always translate to performance. You can keep doing the wrong things over and over again and while you are putting forth effort, you're not going to succeed. I was recently returned to the game during CotF. Learning the modern EQ game play and trying to improve. I was seeing parses posted in the forums that were far better than what I was doing. I kept trying to do the things people posted, kept experimenting, and kept falling well short. It turns out the one piece I missed was the key to improving. All the guides I read said that all 96-100 spells were sold in Shard's Landing. I was missing a key CotF spell which made all the difference. Until someone's comment finally gave me that ah ha moment, all the effort I was putting forth was futile. Although it probably made me better long term because I really worked on optimizing all the other stuff.
What a lot of the hardcore endgamers fail to see, or turn a blind eye because they don't wanna see is that most players I've known play to have fun. The majority of <paying> customers are not min-maxxers, endgamers or hardcore, and have no interest in becoming so. If I wanna work my buns off, I'll come out of retirement and go back into business where I get paid for it. I don't expect easy mode or gimme stuff, but if I'm not having fun and the game isn't relaxing, why pay? Why not find a fun game?
Let me clarify. Helpful: "That should be possible for you, here are some suggestions." Unhelpful: "Git Gud" It's just a stupid thing tough guys say to look tough.
People want to be rewarded when they put forth effort. The more effort the greater the reward. The more you flatten the structure the less incentive you have for people to play the game.
There is also the assumption that a raid geared player is an excellent player. Many toons in raid gear either didn't earn their gear at all (they are an alt that looted rots) or are just an average player in a raid guild so get carried along. "Get Gud" generally means group players MUST be good (see RoS content) but raid geared players can suck pretty bad and still do just fine. Raid gear != skilled whatsoever. I'd argue that many of the best players of any class are not raid geared. They lack of OP gear makes them get better.
A lot of the more casual types are usually more than content to hang back an expansion and use the added power of the latest expansion to make older content more leisurely. It's a matter of finding a way to play the game you find fun while also accepting the limitations you place on yourself. I personally hate a lot of the tedious crap they've been doing lately. I don't like how much they're trending towards a linear game on rails with progression. Tradeskill quests are by far my biggest nemesis of tedium and shear boredom. I only min/max my main. Once that's done, I enjoy the rest of the year doing what I find fun with group geared alts. I prefer a more open world, free to do as you please type of game.
It's usually the serial complainers that are just told to 'git gud'. The people that after months of complaining and being given advice, fail to actually use any said advice and keep moaning on the forums. People that ask actual questions tend to get plenty of good answers. There is a big difference between someone saying stuff is too hard and requesting it be made easier and someone saying something is hard for them and asking for advice on how to do it. The first will be responded to with 'git gud', the second will be given actual help.
