Double cleric nerf - deserves its own thread

Yup. Someone caught a cleric having fun. Neither of the things nerfed had all that much to do with our primary job.

It was fun blowing up undead every now and then, impressing people in group content who may never have grouped with an actual cleric. (this comes up more often than you think.)

it was fun turning the tables on Necromancers and Beastlords by giving THEM a big shot of mana.

Whatever, we can still do our job. Oh that's right, raid healing is a JOB. i honestly think most of the EQ community doesn't really understand that they are playing an entirely different game than we are. They are on some epic adventure to slay the dragon and save the princess and i'm back here manipulating some crazy twitchy puzzle.

Hey, we don't do it for the glory, but it would be nice if our interactions with other players, npcs, or the game environment wasnt all one-note. We don't need more heals, better heals. We got that covered.

My guess is that clerics were up and running after death faster than devs want. If you didn’t want that, then why give that aa to begin with? Always taking away....

I will admit it's nice when your on a well oiled team and you don't need to check each other's performance, but there are times I could really use hard numbers when I'm arguing with the lead cleric about what they're doing wrong . Tell me you get at least a little annoyed when after a particularly rough event, while your trying to scoop your brains back into your head, all the dps start dragging their parse-filled nut sacks all over each other.

wich has a much lower reuse ??? 24 sec , and 3 min ( 90 sec once aa maxed ),refresh

Shaman group heal :
[44238/14638] Krasir's Recourse Rk. III ( 24 seconds refresh ).Classes: SHM/102
Skill: Alteration
Mana: 3974
Target: Target Group
Range: 200', AE Range: 100'
Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
Focusable: Yes
Casting: 1s, Recast: 24s, Timer: 7, Rest: 1.5s
1: Increase Current HP by 9503
[44281/14630] Historian's Intervention Rk. III ( 3 MIN refresh ) ( 90 sec once maxed )Classes: SHM/103
Skill: Alteration
Mana: 2494
Target: Target Group
Range: 200', AE Range: 100'
Resist: Beneficial, Blockable: Yes
Focusable: Yes
Casting: 1s, Recast: 3m, Timer: 13, Rest: 1.5s
1: Increase Current HP by 4381 (If HP Between 55 and 65 Percent)
2: Increase Current HP by 8762 (If HP Between 45 and 55 Percent)
3: Increase Current HP by 13143 (If HP Between 35 and 45 Percent)
4: Increase Current HP by 17520 (If HP Between 25 and 35 Percent)
5: Increase Current HP by 21900 (If HP Between 1 and 25 Percent)

I guess you talking about shaman and didn't get the nerf bat on last nerfs?
1st they lowered our self *burn * by about 50 % ,lesser length and numbers of hits landing .
by nerfing warrior agro, shm as side effect got MUCH more agro via dots and since the nerf our best war can't hold hold agro as it used to be .so reduced dps from us too. .

same for our rain heal who is an agro magnet now ( if many adds up ).

Druids. Nonetheless, I would still like to see clerics to do half the damage that druids and shamans can do, even if it was just undead.

Yes, sorry - i mixed them up.
I have been boxing a Shaman for most of the EoK time and not too long ago switched to my Cleric and was kind of frustrated at the long cast times:

Cleric:
Syllable: 2s cast, 8s recast
Word: 2.7s cast, roughly 2s recast
Undying life: 0.9s cast, 1min recast

Shaman:
Intervention: 0.5s cast, 1min30s recast
Krasir's: 1s cast, 24s recast

Shaman is maxed AA, Cleric has all hastening/focus AAs i am aware of but isn't quite maxed AA yet.

My problem (or rather "issue" ):
Unless i use divine Arbitration and back it up with a group heal or use undying life if it happens to be up,
i have the feeling i "have to" chain-cast syllable/word/word in order to cover things like AEs and ripostes due to the long casting times.
While on the Shaman, i (was able to) use(d) the heals in a much more reactive manner,
but at times with the rain to cover gaps.
On the Shaman i could do "other things" while healing, on the cleric i feel it's mostly the same two spells i use (and clickies during refresh perhaps).

Now, i am NOT a raiding Cleric, but a WAR who was only called to play his Cleric on raids a FEW times.
So i'm certainly not claiming to be good, nor to "know it all" - but my feeling is that Clerics could do with either more hastenings to bring the group heals to at or under 1s casting time
or even better yet upgrade for and another AA similar to Beacon
to cover for the long reuse of undying life.
I did not find the time to switch target and cast the DD to trigger that boon
(which i also found kind of strange to have - cast a DD to improve heals afterwards).
Currently, and for me, Cleric is more of a "proactive" type of healing rather than the Shaman reactive type.

All the more do i "feel" this QM nerf, sadly.
And not just in case i should go splat again on the few occasions when i might be called on to play the cleric on raids - but certainly then at the latest!

I still have our AA chat notes where, when "mana" giving abilities were asked for by clerics, we actually had asked for a 5k ability. Then we got this massively higher version which we were all surprised (happy, yet very wary with).

I'm upset on all of the adjustments but have to especially call out Veturika's Perseverance in particular. Not sure if the Dev who made that adjustment even knows the backstory of this AA. Its's one of the AA's named after a courageous and wonderful spirited cleric who, despite issues in her life, has persevered to continue playing a cleric with her guild. I'm so proud I met her at one of our last "SoE Live's" we ever had. I feel so strongly that this adjustment on HER AA just sort of flipped her a finger and I hope at least this one gets rescinded.

Games don't like "free mana" effect because when you start stacking those things together "bad things happen."

Originally we had in Gates of Discord Gather Mana as an AA. That was bombastically taken out of beta.

The major thing that I'm finding is that there are different niche sections to being a cleric, frankly I actually enjoyed some of the mana abilities. For starters, one of the largest problems with clerics has been the "second identity problem while not stepping on other people's toes while still remaining not overpowered" line of argumentation.

Then there's the second line of argumentation "more healz" which basically was an ugly tirade after Complete Heal has finally been dead long enough. It's basically up there with trying to return Peridots to buffs.

I'm honestly rather apathetic about it really on a mechanistic front in the way it was presented. I agree that "balancing for more healing" throws the entire class priest balance out of whack. The question is stacking mechanics and interweaving effects with a preferred sub style and roles.

Shamans have three major roles: Healing, ADPS, and DPS
Druid have two major roles: Healing, DPS

Both of which have interesting debuff capacities with the shaman being the best of the best.

Clerics really have only one major role: Healing

The sub roles are typically a combination of dps+healing role, some pulling tools, and sometimes a tanking role (I really hate even mentioning it, but people do it).

I'd feel at this point that the role and niche growth of the shaman has done well and has matured into a fine class like wine. Druids need work to increase the amount of players actually willing to play one, I'm of the opinion that "it ain't ports and utility."

I feel where clerics interconnect is making different methods of support available and be actually integrative to playing a cleric. Equally, I would look at the dichotomy between Enchanter/Druid supplicant support mechanics that cross over between those two classes. As clerics share some utility with Enchanters while also Druids being the closest healing class to them.

On table, probably would remove any legacy limitations from druid with indoor/outdoor stuff. It's a lay over from Dungeons and Dragons. Everyone else can Lull if you're in a cave. If fungus can grow in doors and cockroaches can swarm in a crypt, there's nature.

The main healing contingent is probably fusing both the capacities to heal and dps at the same time while making it intuitive and fun.

It's a support class with high defensive capacities with "people skills" mixed in. The modern cleric player tends to be either grouper or grouper/raider. Sociability and team work are imperative to play styles.

Gather Mana was on the last for like at least 15 years in some form or another. Removed during Gates Beta, it's always been a finicky thing with Development. I was surprised to see the AA ability even there.

It's "gifting mana" to a single person and translation to more dps and on and on.

There's a historical capacity for "mana/brain" capacity within the pre-pharisaic Judaism tradition if we consider purification rights within Leviticus and shown through some of the other parts of the Torah. If anything, if we consider Judaism and Catholicism there's a strong use of classical literature and meditation and contemplation. Judaism tends to be more traditional base.

I mean Christianity has a whole cottage industry for self help beginning with the likes of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_Exercises_of_Ignatius_of_Loyola

That translates into divine experiences that grant miracles and other revelations of Christ. Certainly there's also the warrior tradition within the three Abrahamic faiths. Evangelism is more Christianity and Islam, though, more so than Judaism.

If I were to focus on the "mental side" of the equation, it would have to be a mechanic that coincides with prayer but equally one of meditation and "movement of the self towards the divine." This is a difficult concept as it is abstract mental modes through religious experience translated into game mechanics.

"Free Mana button for people" just doesn't translate well when placed against the original historic nature of religion. Especially whenever we consider the vast intellectual tradition since the Renaissance about human beings. Now, there's a tendency towards "faith and works" especially whenever we consider the Book of James in the NT along with concepts such as The Elect which postulates about faith purely necessary for salvation.

So the question is less having to do with say the issues of free will within the contextualization of the mechanics within Everquest. While apparently this cleric is a real person who has difficulty, which goes back to the concept of "faith and works" which would necessitate that "work" would have to connote the ability to deal with suffering with faith, essentially sacrifice, to bring about great work. However, the mechanical aspect of transferring health and mana to a person lacks the element of work as well as the "rewards of faith" that comes through the act of salvation itself.

I would argue for a better contingent that the person "receiving the blessing" has to 'work for the benefit' to maximize the full blessing rather than being a direct "gimme." Charity maybe one of the Five Pillars of Islam along with Tithing, giving, and on and on in other Abrahamic Faiths. But I feel we need to take a step back and look at "players earning things" rather than "directly gifted."

If clerics "give a blessing" what therefore is the criterion for the "god" to "maximize the blessings many fold."

Parable of the Talents:

Matthew 25:14-30King James Version (KJV)

14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Conceptually, there's some interesting aspects to looking at that in terms of game mechanics than a "magical free gimme" for other players. I do support the charitable aspects, and believe in the struggle for someone like Veturika. But that "struggle" towards "faith" is a part of the path to make an interesting mechanic to be worthy of it's namesake to the destiny of the journey to mana restoration.

So how do we make it fun for people to "get heals and mana" from a button?

Couple things I like from Mark Rosewater:

https://magic.wizards.com/en/articl...twenty-years-twenty-lessons-part-1-2016-05-30

Lesson #1—Fighting against human nature is a losing battle

Basically developers hate free mana, players want free mana.

Lesson #4: Make use of piggybacking

Need to build on "something previous" that people are used to doing.

Lesson #6: Understand what emotion your game is trying to evoke

Clerics are a team work class, let's look at "team work" for the ability.

Lesson #10: Leave room for the player to explore

It needs to be an ability "we figure out" how to maximize ourselves.

Lesson #13: Make the fun part also the correct strategy to win

We want free mana, it has to be fun to get.

Lesson #18: Restrictions breed creativity

Clerics have limitations, those limitations allow players to overcome them in time to create skill. "Free mana button" doesn't "create skill."

What utilities do clerics share with enchanters? IVU and root?

Root, Pacify, Mem Blur, Fear. The "emotional" spell lines. That and stuns, which are a different mechanic altogether.. Equally we're the only two classes that uses Magic and Chromatic based nukes solely.

You'll find druids are "offensively" more closely related to Mages while Shamans are more closely related to Necromancers. Of course we're talking early EQ game design consequences that have massively matured in years proceeding.

It's become more divergent over the years as the classes have become their own and the balance between classes and parent-child hybrid classes(Cleric->Paladin, Druid->Ranger, Shaman->Beastlord) have diverged into their identities the last 20 years. But the roots are still there.

Syllable 1.8s cast
Word 2.4s cast
Undying Life 0.9s cast
Divine Arbitration 0.75s cast
Divine Balance(epic) 0.8s cast
Beacon of Life 0.0s cast

Ardent Aquittal / Nullify Corruption, like all cle cures (but these are "group") can proc Sanctified Blessing on the characters they're attempting to cure

all direct heal spells can proc Tunare's Grace group heal
all DD spells, including Interventions, can proc Soothing Feedback group heal

to be fair, being the standard melee group priest kinda makes it necessary for shamans to have a good group heal

Ok, i said my Cleric wasn't quite AA maxed yet.
The casting times i posted reflect what he currently has, with a maxed "focus" AA-Tab.
So i can look forward to 0.2s and 0.3s faster casting times still, yay!

I am aware of those (even though Beacon of Life is one of the AAs my Cleric does not have maxed yet, since i felt it's a rather small heal, compared).

But my point was that OUTSIDE of those heals - all of which have a 3min reuse btw - healing seemed much more of a "proactive" way of healing as opposed to the Shaman's more reactive.
My "feeling" may be off, but it is what it is.

And this, i think as a non-raiding but mostly boxing in groups cleric, is part of the problem people have with these changes.
Especially the cleric mains that know their class so much better than i do and want to do something "fun" or "worthwhile" outside of raids as well and might look for a "secondary occupation" during raids.

A mercenary (or in some cases two) are enough for the healing - a task that a live cleric makes so much easier yes.
But prior to the patch, the live cleric was also useful to the group by keeping the DPS in the fight for longer periods of time, providing a secondary function.
Their offensives are lacking, their two offensive AAs have been "consolidated" so they cannot be used on every mob now (one AA per mob), but only on every other (the consolidated one, due to kill speed).
And on that one mob, the "gain" or "impact" of the cleric is even reduced because in most group settings (even with just DPS mercs), mobs often die just as or before the duration runs out.

Biggest impact though for the raiding cleric imo:
He can't get himself into the fight as quickly anymore and is basically dead weight again for quite some time after relieved from hover-mode.
The "mana-battery" function was only secondary in my observation and due to the recast and block not too much of an issue in itself either.
How long does a wizard last with a QM?
Certainly much, much less than the 5minutes before he was able to be "gifted" mana again.

no, i was talking about the other priest class that can heal like a cleric, dps like wizard, has no mana issues what so ever, dots, nukes .. they can do just about everything but tank raid mobs now a days but somehow they seem to be flying under the radar

Some of the dark lords don't like Clerics and paladins so the devs are being hypnotized to weaken them.

Since the harmonious precision big nerf, it's harder to keep aggro over shamans dots clearly, especially on boss that blur aggro and dot tick back asap (Prince for example).
Harder, but not impossible. I still manage to control aggro over them, but it's true that despite using all our best aggro discs non stop shaman manage to stay in the aggro meter > 50 % for a very long time, compared to before when they were relegated farther faster.

Regarding cleric heals, I disagree on tank parsing being not accurate to measure cleric performance.
If you have some clerics assigned to MT healing, parse is measuring their performance.
Of course, you don't expect knight group healers to top parse, nor the cleric you designated to rez the raid. But if your job is to heal the MT, then heal parse and spell cast parse too plays a role.
And I can tell you that there is a difference of survival, not only numbers, when you have a cleric using a full direct heal set (both remedies + slower heals interventions and / or renewals) versus a cleric casting only remedies for example. Same can be say with clerics not using their AA, there is still a performance difference when healing a MT.

Tank parsing is pretty accurate and usually parallels my self parsing, problem is getting a parse out of the tank you're assigned too. In a perfect world everyone would know what you did, however the parse that usually gets thrown up for everyone to see isn't from a tank you were assigned too, putting you on the bottom, leading to people not taking you seriously when it comes to your opinions. People are fickle and don't want to think, they just accept whatever info is spoon fed to them.

Back to the threads topic, I still say Clerics don't need more heal power, they need more stuff that makes the class fun to play, especially in the group game.

These had the stealth nerf (Ok it was probably a fix). Of no longer being able to user your Gyro while DA'd. Not really a big thing but it is one more thing.