Less than a Wizard would get (from the bonus, not counting the initial hit). Wizards cast more damage spells than Mages so we would gain a higher benefit.
When a wizard does more burst than a magician on a 60 second fight, and then can do more damage on a 15 minute fight than a magician.... That is the crux of the issue. I would hope a wizard can burst for more than me. That is to be expected. But in a 15 minute event I hope to do more than a wizard. And the EQ class correspondent (or whatever that is called) has openly stated that is not true. Which is why there are statements made that "No serious raid guild would take a magician over a wizard" outside of the one required for mod rods. Because regardless of duration of event, that wizard is going to do more damage than a magician. One final thing- not all serious raid guilds can run with enough bards for all groups that need. So while that wizard is doing 125-150k on a fifteen minute event without a bard, that magician is doing 115-125k with a bard. You don't give that magician a bard, that number is even lower. At some point on a raid encounter a magician needs to do more DPS than a wizard for the class to be relevant outside of one. However for TDS and TBM raids, the event is over well before that point is reached.
When I talk about sustained dps, I'm talking about the total dmg/dps done over the entire 10-15 min event. Were not talking about Class this or Class that, were talking about Wizards vs Mages. Somehow I think you understand this and are tap dancing around it. IMHO any event that lasts over 3-4 mins a mage should out dps a wizard. This is also true of events that last over 10 mins. I also think that a mage shouldn't beat out a wiz on a parse that lasts less than 2 mins. Event mechanics aside I think its complete BS that a wizard should be avg'ing 25k-50k dps more than a mage, much less what a lot of people are reporting and that I myself have seen. Again, I'll state it didn't come close to making up for it. Your numbers are incorrect. They placed a hard cap of 40% on rains, normal cap without any mods running is around 59%. During raids you will often have a crit mod running, yours or somebody elses, so this doesn't just hurt during burns. You belittle the actual impact of the rain nerf to mages. I do remember you saying something about upping the mana cost, I will give you that. But when your class has been tuned around rains for several exps and you just rip them out and give nothing in return its beyond stupid. "mages really really think they should be in the top 10 of a dps parse when the raid has blah blah blah. I don't believe they should" Its almost funny, you make a big deal out of *context* then toss out a statement like this. Are you talking about burst or sustained or both? Again I'll remind you were not talking about the other classes, were talking about wizards and mages. You don't seem to be able to understand this so I'm going to say it again... *I don't care about the other classes, nobody else does in this thread, were talking about wizards and mages* Again I'll state, mages aren't trying to outburst a wizard, I haven't seen that said on this thread, nor have I heard PJ say this. Were only asking to out sustain you on fights over several minutes long, just like we used to be able to do. You're comments about pets that can out tank warriors is just stupid and again, not part of the problem. I could care less about your issues with necros, nor do I care about your issues with PJ. As far as mage pets go, I've seen LOTS of stupid tanks die to mobs that they should have been able to tank from gear / aa's but couldn't because they were stupid. I've seen wars die on engage to both named and raid targets because they were too damned stupid to use the correct defensives. I've seen rangers and beastlords tank *all* group content named. I've seen necros swarm pet tank all named in the game. I've seen *wizards* with good healing live while getting beat on by group named. I remember seeing a zerker tank LOTS of group named in the past as well. So I fail to see what the big damned deal is when a earth pet doing a wild 6k DPS tanks a group named. Yourself and others love to toss around the "you have a pet that tanks like a warrior!" comments but you *never* want to talk about the fact that LOTS of other class can solo the same damned content. From what it sounds like to me is you think I should be lower end dps because I have a pet, when that pet really doesn't let me do anything more than other classes can do, they just do it using other methods. From what I've seen, your understanding of many aspects of this game is spot on, your not a stupid person, but it seems your understanding of how classes do what they do is flawed, or worse you just don't care. Savil
That's not really my point. I think it's disingenuous to compare 350-400k to 500-550k when 100k+ of that 350-400k is actually added by the person doing 500-550k.
The last time my guild did Vitio, we took 121 seconds from pull to down. Highest duration of dealing damage is 110 seconds. During this burn, I reached a personal best of 234.057 dps (DRU/ENC in group, no bard). With that I ranked fourth, after two wizards (305.369 / 303.575 dps) and a necromancer (273.971 dps) and in front of my classmate at 183.111 dps. During that fight, I used 7th vet, while at least my parser did not pick up wizard doing so. I consider myself a pretty damn good mage. I have yet to personally witness ANY class to break 400K DPS on a reasonably long fight (longer than 30 seconds), so the DPS values you guys are tossing around are mystic beasts to me, so I might not be entitled to say anything about "real dps" here. But from what I experience myself and see and hear from others, MAGES ARE HURTING BADLY, quite a bit in burn, but freakishly so in sustained DPS. If a guild had the choice between an equally geared and played mage or wizard, they will chose wizard 99% of times. In direct comparison to wizards, magicians are just not strong enough under no circumstances apart from mob being absolutely spell immune, with no amount of support from other classes and on no duration. (edit: at least not if the wizard is decently played and knows what to do ...) Luckily, well-played wizards are not too frequent on my server these days, so magicians still have a spot in raids.
You finished 4th overall and Mages are hurting badly? What? So unless Mages are the top DPS class and the top solo class, it's insufficient? Got it. Yet RoI has 4 mages, MS runs with 3, Triton has 2-3, and RoV had 3 last I checked. Which is why statements such as that are laughable. Good mages are good DPS.
Yes, compared to other casters, we are hurting. This is not a discussion about guild-internal rankings (with only 2 wiz and 1 nec online at that evening, so magicians were dead LAST), it's about our placement in the class setup. A necromancer outbursted me on what enough people, you included, claim to be a burn fight. I purposefully don't answer to the rest of your post, as you are obviously only trying to ridicule other people. Happy Christmas to you, as well.
Lolz. I actually have a problem with a CRT member actively trying to nerf classes. You had this same problem with a few rogue CRT members a few years back, funny how things change huh? I get it, your still upset with the time you were in ROI and lost to me on a nightly basis but it is childish to continue to try and nerf classes out of spite. Issue is, there is not a single point in a duration event where a Mage will out-DMG a Wizard. The other issue is, we also rely on pets to do a portion of our DMG which we are forced to control. Wizards stand there and nuke, but are given a bigger advantage while not being tied down to controlling pets. You guys should absolutely out-Burst us, but after a period we should catch up and surpass you. This has not been the case in 2+ expansions and it should get changed. It's fine when other classes take disadvantages because they are stronger in 1 part of the game or another, but your class exceeds in all 3 areas. Your DPs does not fall off in either group, raid or solo your the top DMG in all 3 areas. But you know, since we have a great pet we are forced to take a DPS loss just because it improves our soloability. Seems logical to me.
We aren't the top solo class by a long shot. If you think Mages are the top solo class you do not play with other classes. Yes, we can tank 1 mob really well, it does not make us a top solo class. Vitio taking 121 seconds should bring insight into his guild's DPS. Guilds were killing Vitio in 70 seconds last expansion before any type of increases and such. And, like I said our Burst is actually our only spot we have a shot at competing in the Raid scene currently because our Burst is pretty good. It's when you get full ADPs (Bard, Druid, Enc) and then the Wizard gets full ADPS (Druid, Enc) and you lose by 25 to 40k on sustained while requiring 1 extra ADPS class to get that 25 to 40k lower mark. Which is another issue, not needing a third ADPS class to do your Max damage opens your group up and allows you to be more versatile in your group make-up.
How did the druid do? /3 Praetor Vitio in 119s, 429164k @3606418 -- #5 Druid + pets 23125k@(210224 in 110s)
Praetor Vitio on 22.12.2015 Druid- 33 --- Anabatic Roar Rk. III - 4 --- Banestrike - 2 --- Cry Havoc - --- Fixated Blessing of Ro V - 2 --- Katabatic Roar Rk. III - 3 --- Lunasoothe Rk. III - 1 --- Nature's Will - 1 --- Plummeting Hail Rk. III - 5 --- Received Chromatic Haze - 2 --- Received Chromatic Haze Proc - 3 --- Received Illusions of Grandeur - 1 --- Resurgence Rk. III - 2 --- Season's Fury - 1 --- Season's Wrath V - 1 --- Silent Casting V - 1 --- Skin to Seedlings Rk. III - 1 --- Storm Strike XXIV - 5 --- Survival of the Serendipitous Rk. III - 1 --- Veil of the Underbrush XI - 1 --- Winter's Wildflame Rk. III - 1 Produced by GamParse v1.5.1.5 Hm, thanks for making me check ... I do miss a black wolf there ....
If you're just going by that cast log, it's possible he hit it before the event started (in which case it wouldn't appear).
apparently I missed some of the parse and didn't give the druid enough credit although I didn't pickup them getting black wolf either. [Fri Dec 18 20:13:30 2015] Druid + pets 24975k@(227049dps in 110s)
I find it very hard to believe that any guild is benching a well played magician, period. Most guilds do well to fill all their dps slots all night, and a well played magician is still going to beat a mediocre played dps of any class besides wiz. Maybe the top 4 or 5 guilds COULD do this (not that even they do it) the ones with very high percentages of very skilled dps, but lower than that, and if you are being benched as a magician for lack of dps, then the problem is your lack of skill, not the class. The problem is that not very many magicians(or any dps class) are very good, when get past the top 10 guilds. I've played in many, and the mid tier guilds rarely have more than 8-10 'good' dps toons, period. Many mediocre to poorly played dps classes, severe lack of coordination of group makeup, aDPS, etc, is what defines mid tier raiding guilds. However, because of the ease of boxing a wizard while raiding, I could easily see a boxed wizard consistently out dpsing a mediocre played magician, and if the magician is particularly poorly played, possibly being asked to sit, for a boxed wiz. I don't believe for one dang second there is a single guild out there that sits a 125k sustained/250k+ bursting dps magician for a different DPS class just because their dps wasn't high enough. You would have to give me prove it to me. With that being said, an equal skill and gear wiz should not out dps a magician on 5+ min fights. Magicians need upgrades to be competitive and avoid frustration and quitting. A myriad of ways can accomplish it, and I'm sure they can figure out how they want to do it, my personal favorite is giving us (in fact ALL dps classes) similar self activated boosts like wizards get, and make all dps less dependent on aDPS. Give magicians pets boosted dps, plus activated abilities redundant with bard boosts for our spells and our pet boosts, much like wizards receive, but that's just my preference, from someone that almost never receives a bard in group.
The thing you are misunderstanding is simple, were not saying that all existing mages are suddenly going to be benched / kicked from guild. The main danger is when the guild is deciding between a wizard or mage to be allowed to app the guild. Some guilds (and more than just a few) are completely filling raids and I have personally talked to mages that have been asked to sit on full raids for a wizard. Very active old mages wouldn't lose there spot on a guild raid mostly because of friendship / respect that guilds leadership has for that mage, *NOT* because they just decide the don't want the extra DPS. But when looking for a new caster app, you can bet a mage will almost always lose out to a wizard. There are guilds that have benched mages that are bursting / sustaining around what you are saying, for a wizard, I've seen it and talked to the mages in question. If they have a full raid (again, not all guilds are hurting badly atm) and they knew they were going into a DPS check type event, why wouldn't they bench a few lower performing mages for wizards that can fart higher DPS? Just to be completely honest here, I am in my guilds leadership, I do get to make these calls and I am a very good mage, and I would BENCH MYSELF in the same type of situation if I suspected the event would require more DPS than the mages could provide. This has been a factor of raiding from day one, if you don't like it ... don't agree with it, or don't believe it, o well. I don't have to prove anything to you, if the word of several high end mages isn't enough, too bad. The main reason mages aren't being bench for a some guilds is they aren't filling raids anyway and so it would only hurt themselves, but... what does happen is that mages is prob getting screwed out of the ADPS support he needs and parses even lower than he could as a result. That said, I'll give you one thing, I've seen lots of mages under perform what they should be able to do, and I've seen guilds provide mages with stupid or no support and then wonder why their DPS sucked. I'm very surprised any upper end mage would even argue about this, its completely stupid to have a wizard out burst / sustain us by the numbers I personally have seen parse data for. Its even worse when you consider the fact that to even get the levels of DPS were doing now we have to have a wizard using MB.... Savil
I think your entire premise that a mage should out dps a wizard ever is flawed. I think a wizard absolutely should beat a magician in short or long raids. It's not like a magician isn't beating everyone else after all. IMHO any event that lasts over 3-4 mins a mage should out dps a wizard. This is also true of events that last over 10 mins. I also think that a mage shouldn't beat out a wiz on a parse that lasts less than 2 mins. Event mechanics aside I think its complete BS that a wizard should be avg'ing 25k-50k dps more than a mage, much less what a lot of people are reporting and that I myself have seen.Why did everyone on the new server make a magician? It wasn't to be the best dps of all. It was to have the EASIEST cheatmode version of the game. If a magician was to ever beat the dps of a wizard, that would 'imo' be like having your group/solo/molo cake and eat my wizard raid dps cake too. You're not acknowledging why so many people keep picking mages, it wasn't because of beating wizards on raid parses. Wizards sacrificed a lot to be wizards. Especially if you've been one since 1999 like I was. No class was more perniciously oppressed by the devs than a wizard. Until we got Prathun, that is.
