Looks like I gotta screw around with a dummy for a bit...I haven't experimented enough apparently. When I realized it didn't twin and worn focus / flappy focus didnt apply, I dismissed it as a burn tool...we'll see I guess.
To the OP, as you can tell after 5 pages of replies, there are some really passionate and spirited people on both sides of the aisle here. Thank you btw for bringing up such an entertaining topic. As for me, I have a 105 wizard with maxed aa's and I have raided with him in several raiding guilds over the last year. I was getting top 10 on most DPS parses. I was trained by some of the best wizards on the Rathe server. I stopped raiding with a certain raid guild because I was getting benched. The reason they gave me was not because of DPS but because a regular member to the guild showed up. I wish it was truly fcfs but not every guild adheres to it. I disagree with respect to some out there that say a guild will choose a mediocre wizard over a decent mage because of DPS. That isn't entirely true because if your a mediocre wizard you will not know how to sustain your mana or your DPS for the duration of the raid. Once a raid leader sees this they won't want you on their raid. That is why a lot of serious raid guilds have an initiation period to see if a new person is worth their salt. I have seen several raids on my server with 4 or more mages in it and we clear content in COTF and TDS just fine. DBG doesn't care about the Mage class just like they don't care about several other classes that needs updating. They will do the bare minimum to keep the lights on and the servers running for EQ. We can complain and moan about the class and what needs to be fixed. We can wish we had this spell line or an update to a spell line we already have. The bottom line is we use the tools we've been given and try to have fun. That is what this game is all about. It isn't all about the numbers and if that is all you care about then your going to get frustrated with any class you play. Each raid is dynamic/different and sure the same 54 people could show up, but that doesn't guarantee the same outcome each and every time. We are not robots and that is 54 different personalities. One or two people screw up and that can effectively wipe an entire raid. Parsing a comparison of high DPS compared to what people say is average DPS is pointless. So many factors need to be taken into account. Such as: Did the ones being compared die? What gear are they wearing? Are they equally geared for the encounter? Are they using glyphs or potions? Are they being placed in groups that enhance their spell casting or their DPS? Is the raid encounter making them run here or there or do some funky mechanic that doesn't allow them to cast? These are just a few examples of why parsing two different classes is so subjective. Even if someone matched up all the criteria listed above it would still not matter because there is the human element that is the final test. That part of it determines if someone is going to play at their A-game, play mediocre or somewhere in between. Also, no two people play their class the same way but then there are those that think they are the best at their class. What makes you the best? Is it because you topped the parse? WOOHOO! I used to think that mattered. Lastly, say you win that raid encounter and someone posts a DPS or Healing parse. That parse should not condemn a class because there may have been factors such as the ones listed above that kept that person from doing their best. So stop worrying about if the mage class is raid capable. If you like the mage, their tools and its play style, then play it. Make the mage your own and go have an adventure with it. Enjoy the journey and stop worrying if someone is going to bench you.
He actually said a guild would choose a mediocre wizard over the BEST Mage in EQ. That was ridiculous hyperbole and absolutely false. If you can fight back the tears from the sob stories and all of the passive aggressive calls for Wizard nerfs, you realize that RoI fields 4 mages. Such black sheep.
No one is calling for wizard nerfs. We are calling for mage buffs. Slight diffrence there, we do not work like some others on this board. Fact is, wizards stand head and shoulders over mages, on all distances atm, in any raidsetting. That's not, though, because wizards were too strong - it's because magicians have been FUBARed pretty badly. Also, I didnt say "The best mage in EQ", I said "exceptional mages", but thanks for calling me passive aggressive (Pondorra? That you again?).
Looks like you would be the one needing to read the entire thread before commenting twice on something pulled out of context. I didn't say a mediocre Wizard is better then the Best Magician in all cases or scenarios. I said to meet a certain DPS check I could absolutely see the benching of the Best Magician for a mediocre Wizard to meet that check in a lower tier guild that does not have ample DPS to turn to. I have no problem with you quoting me, make sure your response actually pertains to my comments though. As to tears, certain people of your class had plenty to do with our Rain nerfs. And they were attributed to you guys not liking losing to Magicians in CoTF. There were numerous threads pointing to that. But you know, who likes bringing up old stuff am I right? In no way, shape or form do I or have I ever asked for or wanted Wizard nerfs. I was actually on your side in VoA when you guys were trash, and helped generate ideas for your class. It simply makes my Raid night longer if Wizards were to get nerfed. It also does not help my problem of having lower DPS. Your the only one being passive aggressive in a thread that you had no place to be in. Trust me, if something was so amiss in this thread about Wizards there would be more then just you posting here I guarantee it. If anything, your own guildmate has called for more Nerfs then anyone posting. But yes, feel free to pick the fight with me lol.
This is not even close to being true, I've stated various opinions on possible ways to enhance the Magician class, never once did I call for a nerf or make it even seem like I was, or we both know a lot more Wizards would be commenting here. I did make reference to their dicho spell, but it was in a comparison to illustrate how much ours sucks, not to say theirs needed a nerf. Just because someone brings up another class when comparing doesn't mean they are always nerf calling, it's in the details. He's "picking a fight" with you because as he stated, he feels you're sobbing about the condition of Mages and probably feels like your down playing our current situation.
You can qualify your statement however you want. No guild is benching their best Magician for a mediocre Wizard. None. Now dropping a tank for a dps class, as someone mentioned in this thread, I could see. The suffering of the magician class is being blown wildly out of proportion. As to me not having a right to post in this thread (lol), since 3/4 of the posts involve commentary on the Wizard class, you Mages seem to have invited us to join. Whether other Wizards care to join in I don't really care. That is their perogative Beimeith is the scapegoat for Mage nerfs now huh? Necros used the same logic for their nerfs. Actually, this whole thread sounds similar to necro threads a couple years ago. Can I blame Beimeith for the recent Wizard PD nerf? I'd like some uniformity in my scapegoat conspiracies.
Actually a 'Wizard' brought Wizards into this thread by trying to draw comparisons based on a solution I was offering. The only other mention by Mages of Wizards is saying they do more DMG then Mages until that post. So, you could say you invited yourselves into a topic not needing your 2 cents. Considering I can probably go back and look and find at least 5 posts from Beimeith about Rains being too powerful, you could say he had a hand in the nerf. Of course not the only one, and it is funny that his name was the first brought up. You brought up tears though, and I wanted to make sure you remembered who was crying before this nerf . It does appear you shouldn't be the one trying to reprimand people based on the contents of this thread. Because based on recent posting, you have not fully read this thread. When your losing to Nec/Wiz with Rains, then they remove Rains functioning in a workable way then they do not boost you to compensate any loss we can talk about what is being blown out of proportion. I would imagine if your Ethereals got dropped to 40% max crit you would be upset as well, but that is just me.
The way you talked about it, does read like your stating obvious advantages to disadvantages in the classes. Comparing Dicho spells and Mana Regen tools. Could read like nerfs, its the only real areas that can be considered us calling for Nerfs even though they are a stretch at best. Other then that I wasn't sure where he was seeing us asking for nerfs.
While I'm sure the reality of his influence is much lower than what people seem to perceive, it's still incredibly annoying that a "community rep" seems to repeatedly, at minimum, passively support nerfs to other dps classes, even if they aren't warranted. He seems to fancy himself the "DPS Police" and pretty much every non-wizard dps player is tired of him.
That's, ah... yeah, actually. You can. Wildmagic twincasting, PD/AD/anythingwithhitcounters fixes that ended up savage wizard nerfs, that's all pretty much due to efforts to clean up casting code that Beimeith contributed to. 99% of the time, Beimeith isn't a partisan, he just opposes unintended consequences. He got bit in the on that, this year.
This was on BETA and with Chromatic Haze. Chromatic Haze was given a level cap and no longer works on Dicho. The most you can see out of it now is 2m tops on a max burn with all crit mods running. It is usually less than that, around 1m.
All nerfs are my doing. They run every change they will make by me first and it only goes in if I approve it. TBM is my fault too since I was so busy this past year I wasn't around to play EQ much and dictate to them what to do for the expansion so that's what we got.
I like how you forget that you, (and all other casters except Wizards) gained a passive 100% crit damage increase. Did that completely compensate for Rains? No, but it did make up for a good part of it for sustained. I also like how you forget that our rain was nerfed too. We only had 1 where you had 2, but we got nerfed too when we stopped using it. Rains across the board were grossly mistuned, and anyone that isn't delusional knew it. It wasn't the damage they dealt that was the problem. It was the damage to mana ratio. When every damage spell in the game has a ratio of 4/5 - 1 for "standard" spells and up to 8/9 - 1 for "efficient" spells, than you have rains sitting at 30/35 - 1, it speaks for itself. I argued that they shouldn't cap the crit rates because that entire mechanic is godawful as a way to tune anything. What they should have done to restore proper tuning to rains was to increase the manacost to the appropriate ratio. If your class has problems by all means try to get them to help you, but claiming that something that was clearly mistuned should be restored is only worthy of ridicule.
That one was Dzarn. They changed two longstanding design rules: 1) Anything that gains a benefit from a counter must USE a counter. Twincast by design was said to be a "Free" spell. They don't cost extra mana and they NEVER used extra counters for ANY ability until they made changes to the back end code about 2 years ago. (You can find posts on the forums from that time complaining when that change went in). Likewise, spells that trigger other spells (Wildmagic, Fuse, etc.) NEVER used to eat 2 counters until the backend code changes. I don't know what the exact change was, but my guess is it was related to the order in which effects are processed and/or related to the manacost of the spell. Twincasts and triggered spells both cost 0 mana which excludes them from a lot of things. I think someone made a change there and it started counting those where it didn't originally. But I digress. 2) Procs MUST suck, always. Melee procs are awful. Awful. Awful. Awful. They've been stagnated into nothingness almost since they came out. They are immune to almost all forms of ADPS that might increase their raw damage because procs must suck. Spell procs on the other hand are relatively new (Underfoot) and they did not suffer from the same problem. Spell procs were allowed to have base damage values that are more than 3 digits, and many abilities used to work to enhance them. Then they decided that was apparently a bad thing and now they've decided spell procs must suck now too and have been preventing most abilities from enhancing them just like melee procs.
On another note, I've seen a lot of BS in this thread. Mages can burn 350~400k+ in 60s which is about in line with Rogues, Beastlords, and Rangers. Wizards aren't doing double that. Wizards can hit 450-500k+ which puts us in line with Berserkers who can also break 500k+ in the 60s range. In a sustained fight (15m) Wizards can do between 125-150k+. Mages can do 115-125k+. Necros can do 200k+ I'm not really sure what melee are sustaining atm since I'm not personally in range in longer fights. My point is the disparity is not NEARLY as large as I see being claimed in this thread. If you are a mage and you are getting doubled by wizards or necros or whoever else, the problem is one of the following: 1) You didn't do something correctly. (Bad spell order / AA usage). 2) You didn't get all Gear/AAs/Spells. 3) You didn't get proper adps support. #3 is a major problem in mid-low tier guilds. I've seen/heard several guilds doing awful things: Don't put Enchanters in Tank groups: Yes, guilds really do this. Don't, unless you have 8 Enchanters in your raid. Use Bards Wisely: Necros really need Bards. Mages kinda need Bards. Wizards don't need Bards. Putting a Bard in your Wizard group instead of in the Necro group for that extra 40% or the Mage group for the extra 20% (Note I pulled these % out of my , but you see where I am going here) is bad. Don't make a "Best of" Group: Making a group that consists of your guild's top Wiz/Mage/Nec/Druid/Enc/Bard is an awful, awful, awful raid group. Wizards, Mages, Necros all burn at different times. DON'T MIX THEM. You make a Mage group, a Necro group, and a Wizard group. Necro group: Nec x3, Enc, Bard, Druid/Shaman. (If you have good necros, you can leave out the healer and do Nec x4). Mage group: Mage x3, Enc, Bard, Druid. Wizard group: Wizard x4, Enc, Druid. (A bard will not add enough adps to make up for a 4th Wizard) Co-ordinate in your group: Enchanters don't get to decide when it's time to hit Illusions and Haze when they feel like it or as soon as it refreshes. Druids don't get to decide when it's time for Wolf when they feel like it or as soon as it refreshes. The actual DPS classes need to call for adps when they are ready for it so everyone stays in sync for maximum effect. Know when to burn / burn wisely: Starting your burn at 50% on Vitio is going to make you do badly because it will die before your burn is over. Starting your burn 10 minutes into a 20 minute fight is going to make you do badly because you could have gotten 2 full burns instead of 1. I've heard of plenty of guilds doing both of these things. There is a caveat in that some guilds might have trouble on a specific phase of an event and require a burn specifically at that time, but this should be the exception, not the rule. Stay up to date on changes: They've been changing things left and right, and I've heard about several guilds continuing to do things the way they always have instead of adapting to something new. (It took some guilds months to learn to hit IoG/Wolf at the same time. Seriously. Months.)
The problem beimeith is simple, you admit that you wizards out burst / sustain mages. Even if we disagree on the amount the fact that it happens at *all* isn't right. Wizards shouldn't out burst *and* sustain mages. I'm ok with wizards being higher burst but not both. In some cases you are correct, they are being out dps'ed due to group makeup, but I've see parses were very well played / geared mages were almost 2x'ed by a well played / geared wizard. This gets even worse on fights that requires the mage to have to screw around with his pet, or gets unlucky and loses his pet early in the fight. Wizards don't have to deal with this issue. As for rains, they could have just upped the mana cost for them and left the dmg, or they could have put another spell we could weave in that would have helped out with the dmg we lost. They did neither. When questioned about this they ignored us. The passive 100% crit mod you talk about did *not* go near as far towards making up for our sustained dps as you imply. A bard in a mage group does a lot for RS / water pet Long and the short of it, the devs completely screwed up.... *again*. By this the point it shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody. I'm more shocked by when they do something right... or at the least own up to one of the many *many* screw ups they have made. The fact that you come across as defending the devs actions and the results is the reason people in this thread (and lets be honest, others) dislike you and what you have to say. If *mages* were out bursting and sustaining wizards I don't believe for a second you would be acting the same way, but you can bet that several mages would be defending wizards saying we shouldn't be out bursting *and* sustaining them by *any* amount. You should have the same amount of respect for us, but you clearly don't. Savil
1) I don't necessarily disagree. The issue is that it isn't so clear cut. "Sustained" is an ambiguous term lacking any substance unless it is defined in context. There is also a big misunderstanding between a sustainable level of dps and the average dps you do. Class A might be able to do 75k dps non burn, where Class B might be able to do 100k dps non burn, but because Class A burns higher than Class B, the -average- dps of Class A is higher. Does Class A sustain higher than Class B? No it doesn't, it means the burn skewed it. 2) And I call that BS. 1 v 1 the disparity isn't nearly that high. If other issues such as mechanics of the raid favor one class over another that is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with damage potential. 3) Did you read my post? I said exactly that. I argued with them they should increase the mana cost, not cap the crit rate. They didn't listen to me either. 4) I didn't say it completely made up for it. I said it went a long way, and it did...for sustained, which is not burning and not with full adps. Rains lost 12? 16? percent crit chance. If you average out the lost damage from the lesser crit rate vs the increase in damage when they do crit, you didn't lose that much. On a burn with full crit rate mods going, yes rains blow hard. But I wasn't talking about that situation. 5) No argument here. They screwed things up. 6) People dislike me for various reasons. PMJ dislikes me because he thinks I sit around all day trying to think up ways to get mages nerfed, and because I call him on all his BS about wanting to be Wizard dps while having a pet that can outtank a warrior. Necros dislike me because I worked out some things for myself and spread that information that they tried to keep sekret. They also believe I sit around all day trying to come up with ways to nerf them. Other people dislike me because sometimes I'm a . Part of it is a problem of perspective. Some Mages really really think they should do Wizard level dps. I don't believe they should. Some Mages really really think they should beat a Wizard on a parse that lasts over 2 minutes. I don't believe they should. Some Mages really really think they should be in the top 10 of a dps parse when the raid has 4 zerkers, 4 rogues, 4 wizards, 4 necros and 4 mages in it. I don't believe they should. I believe Zerkers / Rogues / Wizards / Necros are all Tier 1 dps and Mages are Tier 2 along with Blords, Rangers, Monks, (though I personally think monks should be flipped with Rogues). If you have that many Tier 1 dps in your raid, then you shouldn't see any Tier 2 in the top 10 or else it means your Tier 1 players are slacking off. You can say what you what about me, but I am very clear about where I think the standings should be. You can agree with me, or not agree with me, that's fine, I don't expect everyone will. But if you start talking BS, I will call it out.
While I agree that Wizards generally aren't doubling Mage DPS, how much of that 350-400k+ DPS is from Mana Burn? Not only is the Wizard well above the Mage in that scenario (which is fine; that's a burst fight), a decent portion of the Mage's DPS is contributed by the Wizard.
