Double standard? On 3rd party software etc.

perhaps they are planning for a mass ban on the new server for cheaters. of course, after they have used up a good chunk of the kronos that have been piled up on liver servers over the years

Dude it's not boxer hating. I would even support an environment that exclusively supports these programs separate from other people that choose not to cheat. Yes that's my viewpoint, but a viewpoint that myself and many other people share. People just shy from bringing it up because the thread will get locked anyways or they have simply lost hope. I get that there are advocates for/against it. That's reality. In every game, everywhere, people will try to hack it to make it easier. I guess people want the path of least resistance. That's what I though EQ wasn't, which always made me gravitate towards it. In an industry where handouts/carebearism is paramount - it's sad to see it affecting a game where so many people come to escape this.

No doubt with any system there's going to be some people that can adapt quicker than the tools to catch them can adapt.

But it reduces the number drastically - because those that don't keep up to date get themselves banned.

Additionally, unlike most Punkbuster titles - you actually lose a financial investment when you get banned here, most of the time you get Punkbustered you just get an IP ban from a couple servers at a time and don't lose any investment into the game involved.

I'm sure if such does happen 95% of hackers will be gone - if not more. And most of those left would be doing very benign abuses so as to try to fly under the RADAR.

You're dodging the issue. You used Smed's comments inappropriately to further your personal view point. That is bad practice.

Stop boxer hating!

Hmmm

There are solutions.
1. A temporary fix was done a number of times on Fippy whereby the client data stream was altered in order to deter the use of M.Q.2, it worked for around 1.5 to 2 days after an EQ patch, it noticeably reduced the number of boxed crews, they all seemingly went into hibernation during this period until M.Q.2 was patched. However for this to work, it needs the EQ client to be patched regularly and this would require almost daily down time for every server, not just the TLP servers.
2. A more permanent fix would be to totally re-write the communication stream and to no longer broadcast all information to every character in a zone. Given the age of the code, and the amount it would cost to rewrite it, this is not really viable.

No, you're trying to twist my words when I have stated multiple times why, and have given a pretty reasonable as to why. I'm not dodging anything, Smed is against cheating, and this is cheating.

Are you saying running macro programs that simulate keystrokes to make gameplay easier, allow you to run 6 mages simultaneously, and effectively isn't cheating? If you didn't have a 3rd party program to concede this, would it be worth it for you to run 6 boxes at this point? What about 4? There is an obvious dependency on a 3rd party program to trivialize a function in game, which in itself, is the same thing as running any type of 3rd party program which fundamentally does the same thing. Not only does it effect your gameplay, but now changes the game for everyone else around you.

Hmmm

The game company get to decide what is cheating. They have ruled that is.boxer on its own, is not cheating. Is.boxer can be used to cheat with use of other 3rd party software, but the base software itself is not cheating. Just for the record, whilst I 3 box (via multiple monitors, I don't use is.boxer, it smells a little too much like automation to me, but I accept it is not cheating.

This is a big problem in MMOs, that people feel they have the right to dictate to other players how to play the game. You want a set of tailored rules that correspond to how you think the game should be played, but MMOs have never been like that. Instead, the rules are set by the company that operates the game. Your argument is akin to saying the NFL's rules should be based on what individual players feel is "right" instead of you know, the NFL rule book as enforced by NFL referees.

Most major MMOs do not ban broadcasting software, I won't enumerate the specific games that allow broadcasting keystrokes to multiple clients but it certainly consists of the lion's share of the MMO market.

Your "anger" at seeing six mages work in sync is no different from the "anger" that classes who lacked powerful mob control tools like snare and fear felt when they saw casters kiting or fear kiting back in the day. The often made the very same arguments you make, that soloers who kite (or druids/wizards doing the dreaded "quad kiting") were cheating, because EverQuest is designed to be a group game. Kiting thus isn't a valid form of game play, but a way to cheat, because it's a player taking advantage of game mechanics to do content only "intended" for a full group of players.

This was always a specious argument, but sadly one that actually at one point long ago got the ear of the people running the game. This is why with the release of Kunark and for many expansions thereafter kiting mobs over level 50 became a rare and difficult proposition, with most mobs level 51+ being either immune to snare or capable of summoning (which makes kiting impossible.) The line of fear spells also capped out at 55 for a long time. It wasn't until Planes of Power you started to see the powers that be relent on this a little bit, and if you fast forward to 2015 there are lots of mobs across the spectrum of levels that can be kited. It was eventually recognized that it's a valid form of gameplay developed by innovative players long long ago. Of course changes to the game itself make solo kiting a poor XP generating activity relative to other stuff out there today, but still. Everything you're saying was said in EQ's heydey essentially by people who got "mad" because another person in game was doing something they couldn't or wouldn't do because they didn't want to play that class or couldn't handle t he mechanics of it.

DBG has come out and said IT'S NOT CHEATING. They make the rules not you. Key cloning is not cheating and this is just another boxer hate thread.

Stop hating boxers!

You say you're on a development team, what platform do you work on? If you worked on Windows applications like I do you'd recognize the practical limitations of what you're proposing. There are solutions, but none that are fool proof, and most can be easily circumvented. Many also can violate laws and regulations in some countries (Europe in particular has very strict privacy laws and processing monitoring is questionable there) not to mention some go deliberately against the intended operation of calls to the Windows APIs and would represent extremely negative practices in terms of programming standards and norms.

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There are other companies limiting this shizz. EVE has been out for HOW LONG? They have a daily brief downtime for their maintenance. They took a strong stance like what we've heard now recently from Mr. Smedley. Actionable decisions is what is needed. Hopefully his comments permeate all of DBG's games at some point.

Smed cares about being seen to be publicly vocal about cheats in HZ because he is still selling it. He doesn't give a crap about selling EQ. He is a snake oil salesman.

Look, the bottom line is that modern EQ accepts cheats as part of the user experience. They don't give a about automation (as long as a human is in the same room), they don't give a about any of the other stuff that can be done with certain third party thing, and they don't care that casuals object to 'hardcore' players blocking play like this. It's time to accept that or move on.

I do find it funny though that the discussion is so locked down here about certain third party stuff while it is so common in the game. But that's true of the forum vs the game in general. I guess the sales window has to be kept clean.

Also worth a comment on the more self declared 'hardcore' a player is the more likely they are to play using full automation and hacks... EZmode is the new 'hardcore'. All while they belittle 'casuals' ofc.

This is starting to remind me of some posts made a while before TLP 3.0 where a necro expressed intense hatred of the Bard class and all who would play a Bard and stated that he refused to group with Bard's

Why? Because Bards increased the necro's DPS substantially with the Bard's player not needing to do a whole lot to maintain the increase. Thus, Bard's were filthy leaches who should never be allowed in the game.

Now if this makes no sense to you then you're probably a pretty normal person. At the root of the problem we have the fact that in Classic era on RF/LJ the Mage class is the most powerful and the fact of the matter is that if a player had to alt-tab between characters or used 6 different computers they'd still be able to do what you see them do.

yet another dead horse thread folks should be banned for clogging the forums with this crap everyday when it has been clearly stated a thousand times just this month along you posting on the subject yet again isn't going to change the facts .

Then make it so that this is what they need to do. If you are saying to me that the 3rd party software is unncessary, you support DBG putting in a blanket ban on it?

I mean, the 6 boxers will still be able to 6 box just fine? They don't need it? Why allow it when it opens up such a grey area of exploitation and cheating?

I mean, I am past caring whether they use it or not personally, but it would clean up a whole lot of mess here on the forums if there was a blanket ban.

Both give you an undeserved competitive advantage.
Both make the game less fun for other players.
They aren't the same but they both have the same 2 major problems.

This has spun pretty off topic so we're going to put it away. Feel free to PM me with questions.