[Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] Legal?

Boxing was uncommon in 1999 because computers basically couldn't run 2 instances of eq at once even if you managed to find a way to do so (originally, eq locked out everything, could not go back to desktop without logging off). So you had to have two PCs, which most didn't have. As time went on, people upgraded their PC, and kept their old one which still could run eq. That's how a lot of people got into boxing. Then, a few years later, as friends started quitting and giving their accounts away, you had more start that way (my first box was my brother in law's account, when he quit).

Computers were expensive back then. My first PC was bought in December 1996 and cost almost $3000 for the pc itself and $800 for a 17" monitor (Compaq, pentium Pro 200 mhz).

There wasn't much of any discussion on boxing that I remember, good or bad. It just wasn't a thing for the vast majority of people, so there is no justification claiming it was "frowned upon".

However, I DO remember huge arguments and people on both sides of the issue of "twinking". Honestly, there was a group of people that were outraged if someone used their level 40 to get gear for their level 10 or their friend. Always discussions on that on eqstratics and everlore.

I'm confused... How come P99 got it so much closer?

Oh, yeah, and a no boxing policy is a huge part of why P99 is such a success, which is worth noting in this thread. But then they aren't selling monthly accounts and aren't motivated by revenue stream over game.

P99 is popular because its free.

And it is closer to classic because it originated years before changes were made to the client and major data changes, so started with an older version of the game than we have now.

I've spoken with tens of thousands of players over the last 20 years, for alot of old school gamers, its the communication and friendships you make that make the game, not powerleveling to the end game. So yes, i've asked them, many times in many ways, over many different topics. I was quite shocked to learn there was such support for boxing. I was not suprised to learn that the majority of those people were newer gamers. I was also not suprised that the vast majority of people angry or dissatisfied with boxing, were old school gamers that started with Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, Everquest, or Dark Age of Camelot.

No, it is popular because of the experience it offers. People stay because of other people, because they have made friends and worked together over a lot of time. Because they have become invested socially and not ghosted through it soloing.

Right, so we agree that it exists. Now, imagine, with the new DBG/ P99 partnership if DBG had access somehow to P99's work and offered the correct client safely.

Though I do not use [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] currently nor do I plan to in the future, I have used [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] before in Everquest and WoW (as well as Fraps & Shadowplay to create videos for Youtube, since we're on the topic of third party software).

This is a very touchy issue and it has been for years, spanning many MMO's. For those who aren't aware, [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] has a page which attempts to answer the question, "Is [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] Allowed?"

I understand the ongoing debate and would just like to add some 'food for thought', here's some examples of what that page says:

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If it's allowed, the game publisher will just come out and say I can use [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software], right?
No, not usually. Game publishers avoid approving or endorsing specific multiboxing software, because they don't control the software to make sure it keeps following their rules.

So, to avoid an awkward situation, game publishers will not explicitly allow any particular multiboxing software, but will say that generally multiboxing software is okay as long as you follow the game's EULA and/or Terms of Service.

Unfortunately, this ends up putting game publishers' customer service in an awkward position, as there are often posts on their forums (even on a daily basis) asking specifically whether [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] is allowed. These posts always beget the same response, which is that they don't approve or endorse any particular solution, and the customer service rep has to awkwardly dance around the issue instead of flat out saying "No we are not currently banning anyone for using [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software]".

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But I've heard that "Third Party Software is not allowed!"
First of all, that is wrong regardless of the game being discussed. It's impossible to play any PC game without using any "third party software". The game itself relies on third party software, such as Windows and DirectX. It is a common misunderstanding of the terms set forth in a game's EULA/ToS/ToU. "Third Party" does not imply that you are doing anything wrong. All it means is that the software does not come from the First or Second parties, which are the game publisher (e.g. Blizzard) and you. In our case, I am the Third Party. Both Blizzard and Sony Online Entertainment have either explicitly or implicitly allowed software that I provide: WinEQ 2 and EQPlayNice have been staples of EverQuest multiboxing for several years, and Woody from GUComics got an answer long ago, directly from John Smedley, saying that they would not ban for using EQPlayNice; A few years ago, Blizzard inadvertently banned WinEQ 2 users, but then reverted those bans and gave the players 2 days on their subscription time to make up for the mistake (similar to what happened when Blizzard inadvertently banned Linux players). Clearly, "Third Party Software" is allowed, as long as it abides by the rules set forth in the EULA/ToS/ToU.

There are other types of software that are also allowed. Some other common examples include video recording software (e.g. FRAPS), voice chat software (e.g. Ventrilo), even in-game instant messaging software (e.g. X-Fire, though note that if you try to use X-Fire in-game features with [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] you may experience a performance hit).

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[Source: http://[Unmentioned 3rd Party Software].com/multiboxing/is-[Unmentioned 3rd Party Software]-allowed]

I've been boxing since about 2 months after release date when I started getting bored and needed something to keep me entertained. The number of boxes just keep growing and had to eventually add different ways to connect to the internet. My setup didn't look anything like that as I also had a bunch of keyboards (each monitor/computer had a keyboard) It was definitely not boring.

Boxing while applying effort, yes, Legal. However, the programs that many use to auto cast and auto follow are NOT. If you see a group of 6 gnomes, and only 1 moves while 4 stand there like mannequins until they cast, or they cast in specific intervals of a set time (like once every 25 seconds), They are likely using a program to do it. Real players move around a lot, cast at different times.

The only one that is legal (as far as I know from Sonys EULA, not Daybreaks EULA) is - [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] - because it's you having to do all of the commands yourself, you set them, you click them & they relate to the same buttons in the same locations as your main character.

I don't mind 2 boxers, I don't mind anyone who can play efficiently on 2, maybe 3 if all you're doing is buffing others or being helpful, but when a train rolls by of 6 gnomes, then they sit in the same spot for hours with only 1 moving freely, they don't talk, don't interact with others & take the zone for themselves; I very much mind that. I don't think it's right to be just 1 person with 6 characters, taking all exp for your own while groups of 6 real separate people have to move all over a zone to hunt for anything that might spawn or be KS'd for the ones they do pull.

Also, "raids" of 4 people all boxing 6 characters each to farm boss loot is just sad. If they prefer to play alone, I don't see why they bother paying for 6 accounts when they can play by themselves on any server, even p99. With the downtime for bosses respawns, I don't think it's fair to other players who are 24 separate people in need of gear, having to wait days or weeks to get a chance at the same loot 3-4 people have on lockdown for themselves. It's incredibly greedy.

No you didn't.

Please refrain from spreading false information in a legitimate discussion.

lol

I beg to differ, he was banned, he had to start over, and had to remake toons. Now he may have lied about the reason he got banned, but since he admitted to using the program, claimed that was why he was banned, and then was banned, I tend to believe his story. Don't call people out when you can't disprove it anymore than they can prove it.

[Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] is legal, for anyone wondering here. I have petitioned on all 6 chars I box at the start of TDS because a tradeskill quest broke, a GM came to my little box team and simply asked me to spread all of my characters out to make it easier to click on each of them to fix the quests for me. I think if he had any issues at all with [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] or anyone did It would have been more like calling the cops on myself for doing something illegal.

He has pretty much the best GM ever, very kind, we had a few laughs about my silly character names and then we went on with our day(s).

It is perfectly legal, the thing that isn't is which is used in combination with [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] and other programs.

See post right below the one I quoted please.

Just because you used it in a legitimate way doesn't mean everyone does friend. Perhaps you didn't desire to cheat, perhaps you weren't smart enough to alter the program like my friend did. Perhaps you got a GM who didn't care. Who knows? But that doesn't change the fact that my friend was banned for it.

There is no illegitimate way to use it. Your friend was using something else that got him banned. There is nothing in [Unmentioned 3rd Party Software] that gets you banned.

Your solid belief in a clear liar is astounding and you stooping down to meer insults I guess is no surprise.

Seek better friendships, being lied to is not ok and you're a perfect example of why people, such as myself box. To avoid people such as yourself.

Now yolo swag 420 blaze it whatever kids are saying these days I am done~

Me stooping to meer insults? This conversation started because you called me a liar...nice hypocritical thinking there. My friend is no liar. Just because you don't know how to do something, doesn't make it impossible genius. Get a clue, some people are just super smart. And you are still wrong. He would not have lied about what he was banned for, nor did he lie about anything else.

People lie all the time, boxer didn't get him banned...

Thats an opinion, and your entitled to it. And technically true, boxer didn't get him banned, the alteration of the program got him banned. But if a few people can do it, so can others if they're smart enough. Any program can be altered by a programmer who knows how.

Maybe I'll get to relive the classic/kunark experience of people not believing a person could box a bunch of characters without somehow cheating. Early on, I had several conversations with GMs that claimed I was "turned in" for illegal boxing, but cleared my case after watching me play for a while (unknown to me). Eventually I must have been put on an ignore that complaint list, because after about 6 months I never had another GM talk to me in game about my boxing. (this was pre 2002 when boxing more than 2 seemed pretty rare to me)

I boxed as a challenge and not get stuff and I hate camping with a passion and only do it when I have to (like getting my epics.. but even then I have to space it out over several months). In fact I frequently play with only 1 or 2 slots with items as that increases the challenge and also allows me not to worry about camping stuff

However this isn't a "classic" server, its a TLP server. thats not the same thing. I was going to 2 box myself but decided that the first 2 months is going to be busy enough and there should be plenty of people to group with. I might 2 box later on when things quieten down some.