The problem is different players have different play styles and value different stats. We all know, we don't do things as the devs would like us to.
While all the back and forth is wonderful in this thread OP's suggestion about the molds or a turn in that allowed you to pick which one you get is a winner. It would solve everyone's problems. Would also be easier for the devs since they wouldn't have to itemize events as much and worry too much about loot tables. 2 visible patterns for a slot, 2 or 3 non visible patterns for a slot, and then weapons/chase items as they stand now. Everyone is happy as they get the gear they want, there is joy in EQ for but the briefest moments as half the non visible items do not go to alts from the first time they drop onward.
When it comes to loot distribution in raid guilds, I think it's every members responsibility to be considerate to one another's needs. Just because you can doesn't always mean you should. A Paly/sk/ranger outbidding a berserker on a 2 handed weapon is ludicrous (unless the berserker already has a weapon that is equivalent/greater to the one they are bidding on). Of course, there are other factors to consider like raid attendance. I will gladly outbid you if I know that you hardly ever show up for raids since that gear will not benefit the guild while in your possession. It's a matter of need vs. want. Tanks need to have tank gear to be effective. Everyone else, not so much.
Or maybe a paradigm shift on DPS-heal itemization. Right now, + mana, Hint, Hwis, Hstr, spell dmg, heal amount, +atk.. and even Hdex means soo little , you can't blame any DPS'er or healer going for survivability... I currently sit at 958 spell damage. ( 4 piece away from full CoTF T1 raid gear, only missing nagafen aug and wathever may comes out of PoWar raid). Switching to a full AC-Hagi-HP focused set, i'd loose maybe 400-500 spell damage , or roughly... 2% of my dps? maybe 3%? reduce the arm / glove / helm focus, and add more spell damage to every piece of gear.
Oh I get that, and I agree there should be alternatives. I'm still wrapped up on the fact that guilds are not gearing their tanks first. Unless DPS is needed (whether to do more flat out damage, or to stay alive longer to do more damage). But the argument made was that non-tanks were getting tank items before tanks did. If that argument is wrong, then that needs to be addressed.
I personally would be all for a raid event to drop... 2 Visible notes... and 3 non-vis, and then have weapons and whatever other random item drop as Kunon posted a little while earlier... The fact that most of the current non-vis items go to alts from the first time they drop is kind of frustrating. Everyone can then get what they want, when they want it, and we can all rejoice... And then SoE only has to have minor event itemization and just have everything put on a single vendor... Beautiful.
I agree, a change in how non viz are done would be nice. Many classes go for the tank gear, as it is arguably the best for their playstyle/class. It's hard to criticize someone for wanting their character to be the best. It is hard on tanks though in DKP guilds.
caster dps non-vis items can not increase DPS significantly. For example: full set cotf wiz non-vis vs. cotf tank non-vis +2572mana/-2772hp/+45 hero int/+9 hero sta /+45 spell damage 45 spell damage is about 0.17% (for ethereal nuke) only....
Please, rework the stuff so there is a reason to buy it instead of just doing some mold system where everyone buys the same darn tank stuff and a whole bunch of items get created every expansion that no one ever buys. The older model where gear choices mattered was just way more interesting.
What sort of changes would you propose? How does one make gear choices matter, given our current state of mudflation?
I'm not proposing anything specific, I'm just saying that simply making it easier for people to aquire gear tailored for the "wrong" archetype is a bad way to fix the underlying issue. Better to make DPS gear that DPS people will want. Most DPS would pick any gear that improved their primary role, even if the improvement was relatively small. Currently, DPS gear does nothing to improve DPS, and so we go for tank gear since that, at least, improves our HP and AC.
I think itemization in general just has a lot of issues, mostly because even in this game of marginal increases, mod2s, mod3s, and heroics are just practically irrelevant. At the end of the day, hp and ac are going to make a greater impact on your toon than any other stat. As a necro, I chase after the tank items, because, frankly, every other stat besides hp is irrelevant (and even hp at that is not significant since necros don't really have any "dangerous" hp to mana conversions any more). For instance, I have no need for mana, since the nature of my class is that more mana doesn't translate to more DPS, and spell damage does absolutely zero for DOTs, so there's no point in even chasing that. At least with more hp I'll survive one more AE. However, I am also cognizant of the fact that tanks have a much greater need for hp/ac than me, and they WILL see a noticable difference between the tank nonvis and other nonvis, whereas for me it's essentially stat padding. Guild policies notwithstanding, I don't bid on tank gear unless the raid has been on farm status for months, and instead will use my currency if I really want it, or wait until all/most of the tanks have it. For instance, I've used currency for t1b tank items, though I don't feel bad in bidding on t1a tank items since we've been farming that stuff since October. I like Spankage's idea to make nonvis essentially like visible turn ins, just drop 2 armor pieces, 3 nonvis pieces, and turn those items to an NPC and make your choice of the nonvis you want. However, this doesn't really solve any problems - which is that only hp/ac really have an impact (some small exceptions, such as SD for wizards and mages, but the majority of classes will see little to no difference between each nonvis) Furthermore, this also requires the devs to keep up with their spreadsheet upgrades with slightly different variations for every slot, when in reality if this set was reduced to 3-4 different variations as suggested, no one would really complain. It's just more work for the already limited devs, that frankly the players don't even care about. I think instead what needs to be done is that some of these mod2/mod3s and heroics need to be reevaluated, and be changed to have a LARGER impact on our toons. Make heroic agi/dex have more significant impacts on tanking. Make heroic str add pre-crit damage to melee. Make heroic int have a larger impact on mana regeneration. Make spell damage work for DOTs (please for the love of god make spell damage do SOMETHING for us! SD / 20 added to each tick, and suddenly I have gear to optimize for! Make it work like a type3!). Make spell damage pre-crit, or focusable, or have a greater multiplier, so increasing your SD from some gear or augs will actually have an impact. Similarly, heal amount can be pre crit. Everyone has already maxed out avoidance, spell shielding ,etc, and we are all aware of how powerful these already are, so no need to change any of these. Instead, change the uncapped stats, and make them more significant. As soon as these stats are more significant, then even the marginal differences in the spreadsheet generated items have a greater impact, and suddenly there is a reason to prefer one nonvis over another. With hp and ac, tanks already experience this, as they DO see a difference in nonvis, but now if I'm a healer or caster or priest, I suddenly get a lot more benefit out of some nonvis than others. Even with this change, at the end of the day, if min/maxing, there will still be one item in each slot that is preferable to the others - resulting in a lack of choice. A vast improvement of the current scheme where only 3-4 variations are preferred, but at least in this case every variation will be desirable based on class. However, take it even a step further, and make the non-primary mod2s/heroics also have significant impacts on each class, so there are some tradeoffs, and some choices again. Maybe heroic dex increases the magnitude of procs (higher damage, higher aggro, higher mana return). Now suddenly as a wizard or mage, I might want to sacrifice some SD for hdex. Maybe not enough to get a different nonvis, but perhaps I'll switch an aug or two. Maybe heroic int/wis can reduce the endurance cost of discs, or extend the duration by some very small amount. As a melee, can I sacrifice some hdex/agi/str for some int/wis to squeeze an extra tick out of a disc? How much damage/tanking can I afford to lose? These are just random suggestions off the top of my head, I'm sure many others here have some good ideas to make these stats relevant, but not overpowering. Encourage more build diversity, instead of homogenization. Give us new combinations to parse, so we can find our own creative ways to improve our toons. Since it's probably too much dev work to make interesting nonvis stat combinations, continue spreadsheeting as in the past, so that going for your class nonvis is going to give you some baseline optimal performance. Since there are so many slots and classes, it is probably too much work at this time to get rid of the class restriction and make creative stat choices on nonvis. That's fine, going for your class nonvis will be preferred in 99% of cases (but ALL of them will be valuable to some class, since we've made heroics and mods significant!). Instead, start by making more creative aug combinations than the standard ac/hagi, int/mana/sd, stam/hp etc combinations that we see every expansion. Let augs become a major part of diversifying your class. Make some augs with no hme, but stacked hdex/spell damage. hagi and clairvoyance, whatever. Make some of these have one stat stacked high...40 SD aug, but nothing else. Will it be worth using? Maybe, if I can cover for the lost stats elsewhere. Augs are fun! A multitude of creative augs means we spend more time chasing after them - raiders and groupers both. More things to chase encourages more grouping. Dev creativity can be focused on augs - give us 30 new augs, some of the standard, some with unique stat combinations, and let us start experimenting again. 30 different augs (that are valuable to groupers and raiders no less) is not a whole lot of itemization, but can result in a lot of new and interesting build combinations. Finally, a few closing thoughts. Obviously, making heroics and mod2s more significant will result in an immediate increase in power of every toon across the board. I don't necessarily consider this a bad thing, but it may trivialize some RoF and COTF content that currently exists. If this is a major concern (even though this content will presumably be trivialized in 6 months with the next expansion anyway), then make these new stat bonuses only kick in at level 101. Then tune the new expansion and future content slightly harder. At least we will all feel like we are progressing, instead of the constant stream of nerfs with barely harder content. Avoid any bonuses from mod2s and heroics that increase a % to do something out of 100. This mistake was already made with spell shielding etc, resulting in bonuses that cannot be increased due to trivializing content. The bonuses should scale towards future content - ie, don't make hdex increase the proc rate (which will max out at 100%), instead make it increase the proc magnitude (which can scale indefinitely). The bonuses should be noticeable, but content should always be able to be tuned against it. If possible, set up the bonuses so that each class or archetype has its own multiplier for them, even if they all start at an identical 1. Per class is probably better. This will make the required balancing easier, as this variable can be tuned until the devs are happy with the relative bonuses to each class. This will ensure that balancing changes to one of these stats due to a particular class under or overperforming won't needlessly break / change everyone else. Apologies for the essay, but I've been meaning to write down some of these ideas for a while, and Spankage's post just turned out to be the impetus I needed. I hope some of these ideas can at least foster some constructive discussion about how to keep EQ thriving - I love this game, but it's clear that the lack of resources and creativity in each new expansion is slowly driving players away.
Not really the point, it's that over half the raid want's tank gear and nothing else. While i agree they should do something to dps gear to make it more appealing, it feels like that would take a lot of effort to make sure classes don't become even more unbalanced than they already are. Jewelry molds probably far from the best way to deal with this in all honesty, but it could provide a decent temp fix while they make dps gear more appealing or w/e.
I've seen a tank that rolls on everything. (non-dkp, random among those with tiered attendance who can use, system established years ago.) One weekend, he won t1 caster belt on Friday. Then upgraded to t1 tank belt on Saturday. Then rolled on t2 caster belt on Sunday, but fortunately didn't win Some people are willing to deprive multiple people of major upgrades just because they can use an item with the current system...
Unless I am missing how it works then everyone would bid on every nonvis slot instead of just half the people. How does that help out tanks?
