Changes with the February Update: Developer Updates

Having personally considered this option before, I think 2 wizards' PBAE Stuns would compliment the 2 chanters' stuns rather well - but it would be dangerous, it would take practice, and it would take coordination. =)

Go ahead and call me a masochist, but I (mostly) completed it. You can consider this a two-part spreadsheet since I already did HoT+ AAs.

To rehash for those who missed my original post, I filled out a spreadsheet with player-picked AAs for a Shadowknight filling out his Tanking role. You can view the original post above. I didn't include any DPS AA in either of these spreadsheets, as it was already extremely time consuming, but don't expect to get far soloing without them. Consider these to be specs for a Group-Oriented Shadowknight.

You can find my Pre-HoT, up to level 85 AA spreadsheet

::here::

You can find my Post-HoT, 51-100 (There are HoT+ AAs in the early levels) spreadsheet

::here::

A level 85 SK with Pre-HoT AAs would survive as a fully functional tank with 1,115 defensive AAs and 468 utility AAs (some utility translates into better tanking) for a total of 1,583 AAs. You can still get more conservative than that. My level 88 SK has 985 AAs in pretty much nothing but defensives and a spattering of utility, and he's still able to tank level 88 HA's, including the quest named (haven't tried rares). I expect he'd tank HoT T1 fine as well. He's in full RoF T1 visible and HoT T1-T2 non-visible. I don't even have either 1.5 or 2.0 yet. Only outside buff I run with is Cert Rk. II.

A well-rounded level 85 SK with pre-HoT AAs will have 1,487 defensive AAs and 756 utility AAs for a total of 2,243 AAs.

To quickly rehash the second spreadsheet, I found an additional 2,315 AAs just in post-HoT AAs between levels 51-100. Adding this to the more conservative figure (1,583), a functional level 100 SK would have around 3898 AAs if he chose to never dip into offensive AAs.

Again, we're looking at ONLY Tanking AAs. I believe SK's have some abilities that grant them Lifetap as a % of weapon damage (Epic 2.0/Lich Sting?) so Combat Fury/Veteran's Wrath could translate to better tanking. I'm short on time to add that kind of stuff, but the numbers here should give a solid basis for what to expect. You can think of the way I chose these AAs as if I were milking the bonus EXP curve as much as possible to maximize my tanking capacity in a group setting.

I created these primarily to facilitate a discussion on specific number goals for helping returning players, but I hope I'm able to help a variety of folks with these spreadsheets. Feel free to use and abuse them as you wish, they should be available for public download but if not I'll make them so. I got all of my information through EQAAsearch.org.

Ok... I think I've had enough of Excel for a lifetime. Thanks for reminding me why I don't want to be a Business/accounting major.

While there is nothing to stop them from continuing the same scale of pull sizes, there is also no longer anything to encourage it. The entire draw was always return for time/effort. Instead of killing 170-200 mobs after nuking for x dmg, you'll now kill 12 from the same number of casts.

If they want to continue being disruptive, in sheer protest, they're welcome to. I hope that the community recognizes SOE's stance on the matter, and is more readily opposed to such inconsiderate behavior, though.

Tag-teaming is fine... Consider this a suggested server resource limit of 12 mobs' pathing calculations per account. If 6 characters want to kill 72+ mobs at a time, they have - by all indications - a green light to do so. While it can't hold a candle to the personal gains seen by those soloing the massive beam kites of yesteryear, it still wouldn't suck. I for one, am thankful they took this approach rather than mass banning/suspending people, or breaking the freedom of mobs' travel range that is unique to EQ.

I'm actually a big fan of AE groups. I just see the reasons why server-choking, exp-bar exploding, selfish beam monster kites don't need to be in the game.

I've been aware of Magician beams since TSS, and I didn't regard it as a real 'problem' for the game until T3 RoF was released, and rather than doing it within instances, there were Magicians doing it in a current, static zone. Sad as it was when Wizard beams were nerfed, it was understandable; I had personally made the whole of Icefall choke and die, while I showed the mammoths, spiders, bears & whatnot just what a Wizard could do. >

You used it to kill 50 mobs, but didn't need it to kill 4. How does that make the point?

Off-topic for this already monster thread, for which I apologise, but could someone refresh us on how those numbers work? My memory was that originally, group members decreased the overall XP per kill due to the weird sharing maths. Sony made a change (a long time ago now) such that additional group members up to 5 in the group still resulted in a lower decrease overall, but a large bonus the 6th member resulted in no further change, effectively giving you 'DPS for free'.

I know there's still a lot of complexity and mystique in the game but I wondered if this mechanic has changed, or could be explained and how it may or may not be affected by merc group members. If this is already published somewhere, and link from anyone who reads this would be appreciated.

The last thing I saw about this is covered in this link (which doesn't appear to be working atm), but I don't know how out of date it might be.

http://strategywiki.org/wiki/EverQuest/Frequently_Asked_Questions#Experience_Bonus

I can not be sure to the number of mobs that I pulled in the past but I did need more than the epic to survive in Kaesora library. At 100, I believe most of the mobs here are green with small patches of light blue. Lower level SKs would surely need a MC procs to survive. There would be no reason to swarm here for current level SKs.

Note: If you are raid geared, this may make it possible as I was only group geared.

The mass killing nerfs do not fully eliminate the tactic. See Rangers and Druids who can still mass pull and use vinelash. Mages and wizards cans till beam but with much less efficiency. Paladins maybe able to swarm on undead even with nerfs to shining though I can not confirm this or not as I do not play one or have an alt.

It looks more in line to reduce it as much as possible by removing the incentives to perform the mass killing.

Ryneis

uh, training is considered a no no anyway... (think that was in the PNP for zone disruption)

What is the drawback on removing or force limiting the ability to train? (non raid situations)
From first Post forward the Stated complaint was Calculating the paths on so many mobs was the issue.
And asking again, why is that issue not being addressed...?

All the changes look as if they are targeting the current way to kill these mass pulls, what am I missing here? Post patch, Pulling Pathing Lagging problems are left in, and a new way will be invented to mass kill.

Then send a PM to Beimeth and Caudry the 2 who make the maps in beta, I'm sure they would grant SOE permission to use their maps.

I would love to see what a Druid does after they allegedly mass pull something with vinelash.

Reverse charm kite ring a bell? Seen 30 ish mob pulls in beast domain. Does that count as a mass kill? If not could just remove Druids.

Could also use their targeted area nukes same as the mages and wizards...they all would be less effective as number counts are limited. I am a bit rusty but believe there was a post in the veterans lounge complaining about a Druid kiting a sizable number of mobs in shards landing in the "safe" area near the npcs.


Ryneis

I completely disagree that if you give a person a starting amount of AAs they will always leave. You still have a TON of character development to pursue. If a person leaves because they don't feel invested in their character because of the auto-grant...they were halfway out the door already. I think its highly unlikely that the defining factor in most person staying or leaving is if they personally leveled up their first few K of AAs.

Will it occasionally happen? Sure. But I feel it will not be the "rule". I also believe that the auto-grant will bring in players as well who will stay. Is that worth losing a few hypothetical players that weren't here to begin with? Yes.

So, the alternatives are to make it so easy to get your initial AAs, that they might as well be giving it away...but not quite? Is the perception THAT important to you?

"HEY I am offended that they gave away all those AAs for free! But I am not offended they take 1 hour to earn the AAs it took me months to originally get!"

I am sorry, that reasoning does not hold water for me. Either you are offended at easy AAs, or you aren't. You can't get mad at options that "devalue" your earlier play time while suggest things that also "devalue" your earlier play time.

And dear lord..tuning all content to 2-4 players and mercs? Are you trying to kill any potential challenge in the group game? How is it possibly good for the game to have progression, etc..that...easy. I am fine with HAs. That is an alternative route that gives you something to do when you can't get a full enough group with currency to earn to purchase gear, spells, etc. All content tuned this way would be a joke.

I am currious what loot is being straight up given away on current NPC merchants. I feel you are referring to the ones in WK and the older gear. This is absolutely wrong, but I do not want to assume.

This sums up what many fear. Chasing away people who played this game for years spending lots of money to keep the going all in the hopes of there maybe being an influx of new players. The past and common sense says while there are probably a lot of truly new players interested gaining them possibly at the expense of a bird already in the hand isn't. This game has survived because of friendships and community and the more that goes away the more you lose people. Mid tiered guilds folding up shop and leaving he games in masses when gear resets occurred forcing them into current raids only for them only to find diminished levels of content or broken or poorly tuned raids. Reduction in difficulty and total raid content provided is now causing end game guilds to bleed members to boredom and many are folding up shop supposedly this is to appease all those to left but most of the mid tiered guilds are not ever coming back no matter what you did. Many fortold this before you started all he gear resets and forcing of people into current content but you ignored it then like you seem to be ignoring it now.

You chased away your mid tier by taking away their options and telling them how to play. You are chasing away your end game raiders by taking away their content. You are taking away the harder end group game for those that enjoy that and they to are leaving for extended periods of time having exhausted whats available for them. You are now erasing half the mountain with no effort having to be made by the player other then paying 15 bucks. All in the hopes that you will bring some of them back or attract new players or to simply bleed the hardcore players out of more cash for a larger bot army. Either way long run as was explained you are chasing away more then you will ever gain. If you truly want to have a game to work at in 4 years then keep EQ being EQ while making it easier to catch up. Don't turn EQ into an auto granted end game toon for a price as you will only make a short term buck.

Once again earned AAs are earned. It maybe easier but at least something was done to get them besides breathing. I did say acceptable not meaning rejoiced and celebrated.

Once again, sizable work to be done as far as continued development. Agree. I just am not convinced that they will stay and work to get it done when you still have thousands and thousands more AAs to get. Can you establish attachment if they do go that path...yes. Is it likely as the grant them argument seems to say no...probably not.


Ryneis

When you reverse charm kite using 6 mobs, the mob is often dead in seconds..at least the last time I did it.

Most of the mobs most likely aren't being used and merely on deck. Sorta like how when I kite I pull about 20 mobs at a time and quint 5 at a time, having the other mobs there just for a quicker new target as one dies.

To me, a mass kill is pulling a large amount of mobs and killing them all at once (not necessarily instantly, but regularly damaging them. Where a mass pull is merely pulling a large amount of mobs. Large is always subjective I guess. Clearly would be unable to kill them all at once via reverse charm kiting. Unless you just needed them in a different space, pulling 30 vs pulling 10 won't change your xp rate. Just gives you the option of not running around as much once damage begins.

Ah, so there is a line in the sand that one can't cross with just how much you can "devalue" early AA earning. I feel its a little silly, but whatever.

So, they would not stay and work to get the thousands and thousands of more AAs because they are not attached to their character because they were given their initial AAs.

But..when they have 0 AAs, and they see the thousands and thousands of AAs to get..they will stay? Because someone having 0 AAs with thousands to go makes you more attached than 4k AAs and thousands to go? As long as they are told " hey, don't worry, your initial AAs are easy!" ?

How is someone more attached to their character with 0 AAs looking at their mountain to climb than a person with 4k auto-granted AAs looking at a slightly smaller mountain to climb?

i dont understand where this training comes from. When I beam on my mage I do the Evantil mission so no one in there other than me and who ever I am PLing. When I swarm on my SK i do Kaesora Raid so again no one but me. People I know who are the super power levelers use Korafax raids. The non instanced zones swarmers use are pretty much dead all the time anyways like Thal and Mech.

So... since it's still going to suck anyway, might as well embrace it... when is this supposed to go live?

Without looking at any individual changes, the trend here was clearly in the cards.

I have enjoyed everquest for quite a while and have every one or more characters of every class. It is no more fun to assasinate a bunch of mobs in a couple ticks of glory (or defeat if randomness of game strikes or to swarm a nice little group of light blues with an sk in a quiet zone to build up some aa for character development or get a feel for dealing with some adds than it is to play a chanter or other caster. But character development is clearly where eq was and not where it is going. Nerfing tradeskilling ... the game had something for everyone and it had an underlying premise that if you put in some effort you would receive reward for that. (To that end, it was even a little disconcerting when sense direction was nerfed after so much effort to build the skill even if healing time was very short for that one).

But now, character development looks to be out the window. Clearly, it was becoming inevitable. I was only a matter of time before pandering to customers of the "entitled generation" ramped up with developers from same. Now it will be get in, get up to speed effortlessly, get some instant gratification and move on (which will now be easier with a basket of games to chose from).

It may or may not be a fine business model. If it is not and it goes badly, I hope corporate does not reward those who were rash.

btw, I am not a boomer .. I am older than that. I have learned that there really are generational differences and that you have to respect them. I am also empathetic to those growing up now with so few honorable ways for success and failure and in such a controlling society. And, I am just trying to be a realist and not level criticism on any generation ... we are what we are and there is reason for it. But, this particular game appeals to folks from many generations .... maybe there is NO reason to have to make it like every other game if SOE does have a large basket of games. And please keep in mind, that not all customers have to make the choice of which product to choose.... not choosing a product is always a viable option ... and for a company that exists by making desirable products (I remember how awed I was at the SONY building in Tokyo very long ago), it just doesnt make sense to stiff a profitable segment of customers. If we have not done our part to help make it profitable ... then, hey ...

It's more about swarming/beaming causing server/zone lag.

No real date given. Week of the 17th was goal.