Ninja Looting and Sony's policies

You didn't answer the question.

You say you are an applicant in your current guild. Do they allow you to attend raids with them? If not how do they assess whether you are suitable for the guild?

I'm assuming your guild does allow applicants to attend raids so how did they ensure you were trustworthy BEFORE allowing you to be an applicant? As has been said, initial loot rights are set before the loot is known so its impossible to select the people who will win the items in question until you know what they are. With that in mind, once the loot is known, there is no way to change the allowed looters until the server automatically unlocks it for everyone.

SOE needs to either provide the tools for the raidleader(s) to police things directly or they need to handle the CS issues arising from these incidents in the same way they always have.

For the record, I'm most concerned with the fact that this person having looted Citizens entire chest was not punished at all and was able to go and do the same thing to Darkblood and again suffer no punishment at all. The loot being duplicated for the guild that by all rightful thinking should have had it is a much more minor matter while its an individual case.

I was tagged a few days prior to my first raid. The guild leader, and several members grouped with me prior to my first raid and assessed me based on:
1. Skill/class knowledge
2. Ethics
3. Behaviour.

Once I passed that. I was allowed to raid.

That being said. I post a lot on the forums. I am vocal on my server. And people either love me for it. Or hate me.

Basically. You need to be more careful on who you let raid with you.

CS's time is limited. They don't have time to police petty loot issues.

Hell, I'm still waiting on my petition about my Krono.

That is about the same way it works for DB as well Dandin, except that we use DKP system instead of loot being allocated.

A recruit earns the same DKP as a main member as well during the recruit phase, and can even bid (they have a cap to the amount) but still make out with significant pieces of armor at a low price.

The Ninja looting monk was not mad against the system, he had been in the guild for less than a week, probably his first raid and just so happened a perfect all monk chest dropped and he took his opportunity.

He did say good night in guild before he guild disbanded and looted the chest and name changed.... so theres that.

The point is, by taking decisive (and morally/ethically correct) action on the few occasions it did happen, CS actually had to do very little to enforce this policy. I would guess that as this is clearly now an allowable tactic in the game but is still against their published policy (according to the definition of most people and more than 10 years of precedent) that CS will actually be getting more complaints about this and have more work to do in telling people that they won't do anything.

Lets compare what happened previously to what happens now.

Previously, monk steals loot from guild 1, GMs check the logs, return the loot (not really necessary but simple to do and very good PR) and ban the offender. End of story, he is no longer a problem and many people thinking of doing the same thing never bother to.

Under the current system, monk steals from guild 1, after multiple contacts with CS as the complaint is escalated up the chain, they get lucky it seems and the the loot back but no action taken against the offender. This is already more work for CS than previously would have been the case, except now, the same offender goes and applies to guild 2 and repeats the same process with them. they also make multiple complaints to CS who this time take no action whatsoever. The next week the offender is back applying to guild 1 but thats only because there are no other guilds on that server raiding that content. CS have already done 10 times the work they would have had to previously with this one idiot but he is still around to cause problems and others see what he has done and think "I can do a bit of that myself and then sell the character"

Really, they evaluate your ethics before tagging you? How exactly?

if you ask a ninja looter if they are a ninja looter, they have to tell you the truth. its in the constitution and the EULA.

I am well known on my server, but then again, my server has been around for longer then yours. Basically. some people may have formed opinions on me. that aren't based on actual fact.

For instance. A GM came and watched me play for a bit because Enchanter_02 accused me of cheating.

now I do not cheat. so basically the GM stated that
"it was an interesting use of class mechanics, but you are doing nothing illegal nor are you breaking any rules, have a nice day!"

he then proceeded to hand me cookies, and milk, and went on his merry way

That doesnt stop rumors from spreading though. So a very small group of people on my server have this vendetta against me due to preconceived notions based on rumors that fly around general chat and the like.

But then again, this is the internet. so. Basically anyone can say anything without fear of repercussion

So they basically chatted about that, and yea.

Why is it when people are good at something, everyone assumes they are cheating or hacking or up to no good?

Especially considering I post my strategies here so that OTHER ENC can be good also?

it makes me lul.

So they asked you some questions based on your reputation? What would have prevented you from lying to pass their evaluation? Do they ever take someone who isn't well known on the server?

Well. I dont lie.for one.

And yes, they would. its a matter of applying at the guild site, and they take it from there

i will remind you. that these views are my own and are not in any way the views of my guildmates.

Im not sure how they do every aspect of the recruiting process man. Im a recruit.


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You seem to be missing the point. You say we should be more selective in our apps, but your only suggestion about how to do that is to ask them questions. The guy we are discussing lied repeatedly on nearly every aspect of his application. How would asking him some questions, to which he would have responded with more lies, helped us in any way?

Let me come at this another way. Have you ever been an officer in a raid guild? If you were, how would you prevent someone who is willing to lie extensively from becoming tagged and raid with you?

As I've posted in another thread:

Thanks for the response Piestro.

just an update the account is not banned nor has ever been suspended and has all gear still <3

Back on topic. The basic idea is to screen your applicants a little more. That's all.

Check
1. How do they interact outside the guild
2. How do they interact within the guild
3. Check general chat
4. Are they known to KS or train?
5. Do they troll nonstop?
6. Do they behave in groups?
7. Where are they at in level / AA. Where are they at in gear
8. How skilled are they?
9. In game knowledge?
10. Do they pay attention?

Couple of quick questions here (that may help you understand why SOE would be reluctant to get involved):
You do realize that the manner in how you describe this is highly contradictory, right??

For this alone I could see why SOE would not do a thing to the so called "ninja looter." In one statement you say the individual was in the raid when he looted, and in the very next breath you state that technically he was not in the raid because he dropped it. Now here is where this gets sticky and the reason why SOE would not get involved, so let me ask my next question before continuing.

Was the individual IN the raid, AT the time the chest was opened??

Pay close attention to how that is worded and the emphasis words.

IF the individual was still a part of the raid when the chest was opened, then they have every right completely as a participating member of the raid to the loot. This also applys IF the accused Ninjal Looter, was the raid member to open the chest - they were an active member of the raid at the time the reward was granted and thus have claim to said loot (albeit unfair).

However, IF the individual had dropped the raid before the chest was opened, AND had waited around for the chest to unlock - technically then the player violates the Ninja Loot rulings (this is because the chest had to be opened - the opening of the chest depletes the chest's life bar and that is considered a seperate kill, one that the ninja looter would not have taken part in).

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The other problem in this matter is this "Corpse Lockout Timer", which ANY AND EVERY member of SOE GM staff will monotonely state "Corpses have a 5 min lockout timer, if the timer has expired then the loot is open to all." Now while you and I and EVRY player out there knows that this is a bald face BS lie, most corpse lockout timers are 1 min 10 sec usually after creatures death (for ALL trash mobs and MOST named mobs) 2 min 10 sec (for those exceptional odd named mobs and most raid mobs). I have yet to actually see a creature die that has had a 5 minute corpse lockout timer, but according to SOE that is the real set in stone policy.

Fortunately you are 100% wrong on this, as Piestro acknowledged and as the GM staff finally recognized by returning the loot to the rightful parties. You don't get to just grab everything from a chest because you were one of 54 people in the raid.

Im not so sure I would say 100% wrong, as it still happens, unfortunately.

It is great that in your case the situation was resolved in the Raids favor, but I have seen instances of "Pick Up Raids" where the individual accused of Ninja Looting was able to substantiate their reasoning for their actions because they felt they were going to be completely left out of any fair chance of receiving any loot.

Still it is a topic of sore debate, and while I personally hate to see a "Ninja Looter" prosper, I know all too well that it does indeed happen as SOE officials have quoted the "Lockout Timer Rule," to me personally, several times in defense of their position for doing nothing.

The issue is this is not ninja looting. Now there are other rules that soe would have that I would see them using to punish the people. The play nice rules(as have been stated before) would be some I could see them using on people.

This kind of stuff, soe is correct about. It is not a customer service issue. It is a guild issue. Guild rules are not stuff that soe has to enforce nor should they. If the person who looted and the guild leader(rightful owner) both petition then I would say they should move the gear since all parties gave permission, but this is clearly not the case here.

Ninja looting does not happen in good guilds because they screen applicants before they are allowed to be in a position to loot stuff. Choosing to accept bad apps or not screen at all is a guild issue and has nothing to do with CS. New apps should be kicked out of dz, for instance after event is won and if something rots for instance they can be added back in. Ninja looting is the guilds fault for letting them do it imho.

Also one chest or mob in older raid is not that much loot. Guild should kick ninja looter and move on and not beetch to cs about it. Certain newer raids have double chests but since this is progression server thread im assuming those are not available yet.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/npc.html?id=35807 Queen Klaknak in Al'Kabors (t3 HoT) when HoT was current. Good luck trying to keep your group alive through a 39K pbae that stuns. My shaman who's still sitting in top group content gear for HoT was sitting at around 50-60k HP, a single Cannibalize would have been enough to kill me. I had duo'd a good majority of nameds in T4 hot but could not kill Klaknak with a full group--ended up needing a druid to do some kind of fancy charm kiting to down her.

Also...this goes WAY back, but I was in Crypt of Dalnir a few weeks ago with my super twinked characters (full set of ToV gear...yeah I was bored). I charged The Kly headfirst thinking he'd be no problem for my 2000-something HP squad. I did NOT expect to have all 3 characters stuck in a charm loop...LOL! The entire zone itself was pretty difficult though, probably one of the hardest dungeons I've ran through. My friends and I bring it up as a joke for an unpleasant experience "I'd rather XP in crypt of dalnir than go to your wedding..."