I only mentioned rng/dru for the sake of possible druid-like effects built into the shield, like a regen or DS, and a nature-like appearance as opposed to the walls some tanks are carrying around. But, as necessary, the shield's function ought to be tuned for rangers' needs which would likely make it OP for druids... so forget that I said rng/dru.
Alternately you could just adjust the ranger post-softcap returns on ac up closer to where knights are. Even then I'm not sure that would fix the problem. Once knights received defensive disciplines years ago (it was necessary), all subsequent content has been designed specifically with those disciplines in mind for routine use. The 15% vie spell for rangers that can be keept up permanently (with defensive proc attack debuff) can be considered a discipline in and of itself, though (knights have a 20% vie, 35%, and 36% vie based disc) ... so maybe more post-softcap returns would be useful. Even so, that 15% under current mechanics was not enough to let a group geared ranger buffing out to 100k hp and 8600ac toting a shield survive against one of the easiest named with 3 cleric mercenaries focusing healing on him.
I'm hoping on the development side that this pet nerf will make it simpler for the Devs to balance content so that players in general - not just Ranger's as the subject of this thread can survive better. If Pet's taking minimum damage hits 80% of the time is something the Dev's had to develop around that pitfall is now gone, much to the chagrin of pet owners in game. I can't tell you how many named camps and mercenary/partisan quests I've finished in recent expansion hiding behind my bow as my friend's pet tanked with 2 merc healers. The good from the bad is maybe I get to use all these tank template items and top set of Augs I've built to survive better in the group game in group gear. We'll have to wait and see. I can tell you I was never able to Molo Dark Elf NPC's before the Ro's buff. (I spend an hour or so at a time to punch my lottery ticket on global drops). I can bandolier in my Earthcaller and survive long enough for the slow to stick and tank even yellows without much worry. An occasional quick heal is needed here and there - but by and large this spell is the most import add to our spell book since Vinelash and/or Blusterbolt. Tanks are at a premium and a soft tank Ranger could fix a lot of wasted log ins of no chance at progressing. I'm sure my friend list is like most every other players - mostly tanks in hopes that progress can happen one night. We're not asking to be Knights. We just want to be a respectable and plausible fill in.
Pure blue sky thoughts - EQ arms and armor, IMO, echos 14th - 15th century medieval warfare. Heavy infantry consisting of dismounted knights and heavily armored fighters formed a center battle group that used arming swords and shields to create a shield wall or alternately advance on the opposing force. Under this model (assuming the model has at least some influence) EQ Rangers are peltists/skirmishers. With this in mind - Ranger shields: Pavise - large shields used to protect archers (and those directly behind the archery line) from incoming missiles. When EQ Rangers are part of ranged damage one would think that they'd have some defensive capability to help protect casters in their immediate vicinity (and themselves). If auras and totems weren't in such disrepute I'd think they'd be a reasonable choice (along with Ranger disciplines and abilities) to substitute for fixed pavises which really aren't all that practical in EQ. Buckler - With lighter/DWable short swords -> falchions -> rapiers one might well expect Rangers to fight with sword and buckler rather than a heavy plate tank's arming sword and heater shield. The question arises, "What differences should there be, if any, between an EQ buckler and an EQ heater shield?" One answer might be the difference, as in the case with the weapon used with the shield, should be consistent with the differences between a class that tanks nearly 100% of the time and a class that DPSes the vast majority of the time. Another answer might be nothing other than appearance. Any performance difference is already accounted for by class characteristics, itemization, disciplines, and abilities.
How do you do your self healing? I find waiting on Earthcaller procs not worth it. Same with the shield. Sacrilege perhaps to some shield fans in this thread. Yes, it works, I just don't find it worth it. What I find helps me most is being fast at self healing. All my keys are custom so I won't say what key is where, probably a mess for anyone's layout but mine. What I do have is three right next to each other. One targets me. The next does the deluge style heal if up or the standard one if not. It picks automatically by binding the two spell gems to that one key. The third key changes target back. Any time my health is low I roll the keys. It works to switch target back to the mob while the heal is still casting. Miss out on less attacks that way. I learned to be good at this raiding where the group shaman didn't give a rat's tail about healing rangers. Doing this I can molo in Argin Hiz. It still sucks and I need to self heal a lot. Basically I roll those keys when health hits 50%. Pet players scream bloody murder at a tenth this effort but it really does work. Took me a while to get fast. Yes, a lot of attempts fail on interrupts. My gear is old raid stuff from Veil of Alaris, I think a bit over group gear but some have told me I'm nuts and group is better. Knights have spells which act like this without needing to change target. SKs cast taps doing damage and healing. Paladins have targetted heals but also reflect heals and vies which don't require them to do the target dance. If rangers could get something fast without the target dance that would help. You would think a spell that can target anyone is better than a spell which is only self but the target shuffle really is a pest. It would be cool if a targetable spell could be optionally cast in self only mode. Never happen, but would be nice.
I've always felt rangers and beastlords should have a very mana intensive/inefficient but competitively powerful nuke that reflects a heal on the targets target. It would have to be inefficient enough for raw damage output purposes that it would be avoided in general mundane dps rotations but a tool that adds a degree of depth to these hybrid classes. In an "I'm tanking" scenario - it helps you survive while still allowing you to dps. In the "I'm grouping/raiding" it's another hybrid support tool that allows the ranger/beastlord to help assist the main tank stay up on challenging content.
We are already long on mana intensive inefficient. Beastlords have massive mana regen abilities but rangers do not. Still, a spell like you describe would be useful. Mana just flows away in rivers tanking, worse if using a shield as aggro comes from Summer's which is expensive. The mitigation gap is vast. Ro's Burning Cloak is a most welcome new spell but it is just 150 attack. The vie at 15% is really just 5% over par as cleric or merc vie is so common. It has a long enough cast time refreshing in a fight gets lots of interrupts while its duration is invisible. We can see time and procs but it nearly always fades on vie points. Even though mitigation is the thing to have I would rather have ranger style abilities than knight abilities with their shield focus. I think of the ranger as a scout who is no slouch for skill but travels light in the wild. Yes, we all have 100% weight reduction bags but the character concept remains. Shields don't go well with wilderness travel, more like armies and citadels. With that in mind I would rather abilities that don't depend on the shield. Yes, the shield should work, anyone can hold a barn door between themselves and the beastie, but let the disciplines and AAs be independent of it or even conflict. Bonus parry skill with two handed weapons, much like monk staff block. Let Outrider's Avoidance do something. Mob accuracy is so high boosting avoidance doesn't actually make much difference. Let it crank dodge so much 1/3 of all attacks get dodged after counting the typical strikethrough of a group named. That would count for something. Still wouldn't be safe, only mitigation is safe, avoidance is never safe, but it would help. Some fast casting spell without the target dance as above. Some two or three minute re-use AA or discipline which gives a substantial bonus for 3 ticks or so. Realistic point limits on Protection of the Spirit Wolf. It is an expensive long recast speed bump. The raw mitigation gap is excessive but I can't think of a good way to handle it off hand. Even giving rangers knight overcap returns would not make all that much difference. Player tanking is heavy in shields and activated abilities and has been for quite a few expansions. If you need the most mitigation whatever the price then use the shield.
So now you are comparing a class built for soloing to classes that are not. You realize this makes no sense, unless you want every class in the game to do the exact same thing; then what would be the point of having different classes. Not that it matters anymore, as pets have now been nerfed to hades (but best left in the caster discussion section). Don't know why it was brought up here. Anyway: After far as template for the ranger goes. The ranger light tank designation dropped a long time ago, when devs decided that instead of 3 tank hybrids, they'd have 2 defensive hybrids and 1 offensive hybrid (this was the ranger). If anyone remembers this far back, the best tank during the Kunark era was a ranger. Yes, even better than warriors. Over the years, rangers swung all the way to the other side where at one time they were the unparalleled best DPS class.Now rangers are kinda in limbo. But if you decide to drop a sword and equip a shield, I'd expect you to get better than a negligible defensive increase, making somewhat of an emergency tank (outside of the duration of WS). That shouldn't be out of the realm of possibilities, which at the moment is what rangers face.
We used to be just that. Love him or H8 him, Brad McQuaid (the original dev) played the Ranger class himself, and (you could almost say) balanced the game around that - kinda sorta. -Rat
Of course I was.... and I remember the hit... But the continued stagnation has only made us worse at tanking over the years. Dalead kinda "nailed it" above. -R
Without giving comment to the rest. My RL is aware of the Healing AA a Focii of his individual Rangers. He knows that if I (for example) jump off DPS and start chain healing the tank. That: A: We all saw "something bad" happen to a Clerical type. B: What Rangers have the Focii to pull it off while some Divine Rez's get in gear to recover. C: That we're smart enough to "cover tracks" - after chain healing a bit. -R
Ranger sucked as tanks during kurnak, it was original release we were godly at it same skill caps hard caps etc as warriors. It was only a few expansions back that Dev's themselves were calling us Light Tanks, you can probable dig up some post with ones like Elidroth saying so.
Rangers did not suck as tank in Kunark. My ranger was still my main back then. Yes, they were godly in original (by original standards that is), but still the best of the tanks in Kunark. It was shortly after that they began to slip from that spot. I'm sure you can dig up some posts. No one back in those days called rangers any kind of tank; light or otherwise. But that didn't mean they couldn't tank back then.
I use an extended target window hot key to one button push heal tank I think I have it set too so I don't need to f1 then hit heal button. Fortunately, the quick heal is usually available when I need it.
People remember Rangers dying in Kunark for the wrong reasons. If you made good gear choices it wasn't that you were a wet paper bag tank - i was the fact that snare was often resisted and you had to cast it early so we always had agro. There were none of the tank agro tools back then. Snare early or the group dies and pray you don't die because the healer isn't focused on healing you. This is where our then Defense skill cap of 200 wasn't enough.
Sword and Board. That were it is at for tanking situations for a light tank in desperate situations. With all due respect to Delbaeth it is the wrong answer to think of ourselves as scouts. Scouts even in EQ lore are people who specialize in not being seen and delivering devastating range attacks (missile attacks in both middle age and modern eras). While range attacks are something we definitely should excel at it shouldn't be our primary form of combat. We are warriors attuned with nature. Warrior implies someone who should be able to stand toe to toe with standard mobs, not skulk in the shadows waiting to loose a devastating range attack. Requiring more healing and more personal involvement to make this happen is something I agree with and fully expect. The exact balance between warriors and rangers is something I'll leave to wiser heads. However the balance comes about it should be between warriors and druids. Not warriors and knights and druids.
Protection of the spirit wolf is as close as we get to a defensive / vie. It just needs the lame damage cap removed...
A ranger is not (or at least should not be) a mana rogue. It absolutely is a tank - and for a long time was the only class outside of a warrior with the skill set to tank a raid mob on purpose / on demand for long enough to matter and be used as a tactic (i.e. tank rot=ranger(to slow, and jump start agro)->warrior->warrior->warrior->*emergency*insert ranger here->*emergency insert ranger here->warrior->warrior->warrior->warrior). For a long time, the ranger was also the best tank for a high dps / high agro caster dps heavy group. Best agro makes for wizard pwn. And Even in groups where he is not the main tank, the ranger is the off tank. It's his job to taunt and agro mobs waiting to be mezzed or rooted. Heck, from a role playing perspective that is the whole reason wood elf rangers exist - to act as warder (the title of a level 60 ranger in everquest btw) for high elf enchanters.... Survival, and agro abuilities are absolutely appropriate for the ranger class, and they need boosts, both in terms of better survival over the short term, and the long term... Some idea's just to throw stuff out there: 1) Another weapon shield style disc. Shorter with a much MUCH shorter reuse, and on a different timer. 1 tick. 6 seconds. Whatever. Basically just something you could hit if you take a huge spike when tanking a group mob, or if you're having trouble parking something, or need to shield an enchanter, etc.... The 3 plate tanks all have something to use if they take a spike (and not just a tab heal tab, but a stun / tap / whatever to help the healer catch you before you fall). This could be the ranger version when acting as group tank. At raids it's just something to hit if you get agro and don't want to die or burn weapon shield's ultra long cool down to survive when the tank isn't even dead, but agro mismatched. 2) Fix spirit wolf so it doesn't poof in 2 hits. It only has a 1 minute duration.... No need for such a feeble damage counter. A ranger using this mitigating 40% better than a ranger, still takes WAY more damage than a warrior using defensive to mitigate 50% better than a warrior. Probably takes more damage than a knight mitigating 30% better than a knight too. Throw this puppy a bone. 3) Add more regen to Gaurdian of the Glade. It's usually used for dps burns on raids, but it does have a regen component. Make it matter.... 4) Make outrider's evasion last longer... MUCH longer.... Rogue's lithe disc has none of the "decrease accuracy" type stuff and lasts TEN MINUTES, with a TEN MINUTE REUSE. Or... Increase it's avoidance percentage significantly.... 5) Better AC returns would be cool, but so would monk style avoidance boost. Sure you're still gonna get spiked, but hey - that's just the way things go without plate. 6) WTB Something to replace luclin snare as non-damage fast cast agro for keeping agro off enchanters and such. Something with a tonne of hate... and maybe instead of just a snaring the feet, it could "bind their hands" (slow their attack speed) for a second or two. Have it put a recourse on fade that prevents the slow from being spammed for slow's sake, but allows the snare to land for +hate. 7) How about an AA that double's your chance to proc shielding thunder when you have a sheild equiped? Or makes it last longer? Because... the shield resonates from the sound of a thunder clap I guess?
This is 100% incorrect I'm afraid. Take it from someone who remembers with shuddering horror trying to tank for groups at the launch of Kunark and taking more damage with a shield than the Rogue I hung about with it at the time did while dual wielding. Now if you meant up to the launch of Kunark you may well have had a valid point and many Warriors complained at the time.
