Where do you draw the line?

At the marketing firm I work for, we believe that the customer is always right, but they need us to guide them to what is right. Good marketing accomplishes this.

However, I wouldn’t discount the input from customers responding on social such as here on the forums or twitter or other sources. That can give a company valuable insight into how the more silent portion of their customer base will react. Again I use the example of my Marketing Case study from college on Microsoft and the launch debacle of the XBOX One. For months prior, Microsoft received warning signs that their vision for that product was in direct contrast to what the customer wanted. This was prior to any sales metrics to be studied. Even thought they knew how unpopular their decisions were for the XBOX One, Microsoft forged ahead ignoring their customers. We know how that ended. Don Mattick was out of a job and the famous 180 took place just weeks after E3 2013. But the damage to the brand was already done. Microsoft has since learned, at least with XBOX, to listen to what their customer wants and deliver it to them.

100% agree. This is line for me. Any more clamping and I’m done. The time capsules, replay badges, they don’t bother me, but this, this directly affects me. Any more clamping and I am done for good.

So am i, but i think it is more of a "stockholm syndrome" than game done something right

I did leave for a bunch of years, but came back

We all do. I believe that most "old school" players have kept lot of breaks from game. I also think it is healthy and makes you see things in another perspective.

i also left for a few years and came back

You're arguing that a for-profit corporation is going to completely open their books to anyone interested just because the corporation has been asked to be transparent?

Which game companies have done that so far?

When was it, exactly, that you "asked" DCUO to do this and they promptly agreed and opened their books for viewing by all of us because you "dared to ask"?

I missed that.

Let's say that, however, hypothetically speaking, Daybreak did this tomorrow.

How do you now have access to the complete financial records/"books" of STAR WARS GALAXIES, MARVEL HEROES, THE MATRIX ONLINE, etc., to compare and "know"?

But let's imagine that you could somehow conjure up the financial records of dead corporations by magic, also tomorrow.

Now, how do you "know" that "DCUO would be here without replay badges"?

Dare to be less condescending.

And that's why we don't have a scoreboard at the end of instances!

Because nobody tries to outdo other players! Nobody cares about scores!

Pull my other one.

"Possibly"? "May have been the case"?

What happened to your "knowing" because you "dared to ask"?

All of that can be boiled down to "Don't ask, don't get." If I ask for something, and I get refused, that's one thing. Not asking in the first place because I assume there is no point is just... well... I'd only have myself to blame there, correct? If you *really* want me to be less condescending, try not twisting what I say to fit your own opinions. THAT is condescending.

Or in other words: The answer's always no if you don't ask. I get that. That's fair and some of my own posts/comments definitely fall under that idea as well. There's many requests I've made in the style and base item suggestion threads that I don't expect to be done for any number of reasons or that aren't crucial or super high on my priorities of what I want but would just be kinda nice simply because, well, no harm in asking and just putting it out there that at least one person has interest in them.

And yeah, while I don't necessarily agree with all of the assessments or specifics stated throughout this thread, I definitely do agree and recognize the overall importance of some sort of line and rules/structure to what is and isn't monetized, how monetized each thing is/the prices, the balance and timing of monetized vs nonmonetized things and their releases, balance between the irl money and in-game money prices and ways of obtaining things that are available both ways (like the Krypto base item, stabilizers/fragments, seals, etc), and so on. Every game, every business or product/service in general really, has to consider this. Plus, if they decide on a rule system or structure to these aspects it can be helpful to the players and help us have an idea what to expect so we can manage things. It would be much easier to decide how and when to spend irl money on things for the game if we had a sense of these things. And to be fair, any time business or financial subjects are being discussed there's gonna be a good bit of speculation and hypotheticality involved. That's just the nature of the beast.

(This isn't necessarily an endorsement of anyone specifically or any particular arguments or statements, just me saying the topic is something that should be discussed and considered and that it's all valid)

Likewise. I don't mind differing opinions, but I do mind people that *must* "win" an argument, by whatever means, at the expense of actually being right.

On the unflip side, how do you know that the replay badges didn't drive players away and we would have even more people playing if we DIDN'T have the replay badges?

Quote where I told anyone not to ask anyone for anything.

You're just making this up. And you didn't answer a single question of mine because, of course, you can't.

Me:

Crickets!

One could posit that without Replay badges, players who took a break would have a harder time catching up to their friends. This would leave swaths of people behind. Eventually this would leave people bummed out and dissatisfied and not wanting to come back.

There's also the fact that the first major mass exodus of players occurred AFTER Origin Crisis came along...which was long after the introduction of Replay Badges. While it's valid to say that Replays changed the way we consumed the content, as well as how it would eventually be constructed, it's also fair to say that it was no where near as controversial as some of the other changes that followed the introduction of Replays (Missing Gear pieces in Paradox, GU36/Weapon Mastery/AMs, Monthly Episodes...and so many more).

I didn't say "I know". You interpreted "You can know" as "I know", which it isn't. Mepps heavily implied that DCUO would not be here if not for 10 years of Replay Badges. I asked him if that were the case, and - in your words: Crickets.

If it's not possible or reasonable to provide a straight answer to that question, then it was a mistake to make that implication - obviously it's going to attract interest. So I asked. That's all I was saying there. I'll try to be clearer in future.

I also didn't make any of the other assertions you bring up in your post. To The Strawmobile!

Sigh. I wrote:

You responded:

Now you say:

So, in conclusion, you instructed me that I was wrong to say "we don't know" is the answer to the question "Would DCUO be here without reply badges?" because we "can know" because all we need to know is "ask for transparency."

You further say of asking that "It's not a huge deal. You just haven't done it yet. And is therefore impossible in your view. Dare to ask."

And now you say "I didn't say 'I know.'"

So: all I need to do to find out "Would DCUO be here without reply badges?" is "dare to ask" Mepps.

But YOU don't know the answer, after all, you now say.

Oh. Well, then: "It's not a huge deal. You just haven't done it yet. And is therefore impossible in your view. Dare to ask."

Best of luck with that! I'm so glad to learn that: 1) it's an answerable question; it's not an answerable question; it's an answerable question; it's not an answerable question.

Thanks for this valuable and insightful and not in the least incoherent information.

I'm going to stand with "Would DCUO be here without reply badges?

We don't know. We have no way of knowing. We can't know. It's pointless to debate the question with no control to compare."

But since you know, but don't know, but do know, but don't know, have fun further clarifying your position and explaining to me why I'm wrong that we can't know if DCUO would be here without replay badges.

The answer to the question, in your view, is?:

a) We don't know.

b) We do know.

Try picking one answer, not both.

I have popcorn. You're making lots of sense!

Not sure if someone else already mentioned it, but you can buy prestige and renown already. You can buy source for MPC, you can buy Prestige and starter renown from vendors and donate or consume them.

Furthermore, SP are pretty much for sale with all the style feats you can get in the HOL with source (which again....are for sale). Or bundled with an CR skip.

Elite renown, not yet....but yeah, I'd guess that's on it's way.

Personally I've never had a problem with the seasonal currency because some people might not have time during the seasonal (especially the short lived ones) and buying a block of currency might make up for a week's missed runs. These are limited time and limited impact (there are only so many season feats to get or items to buy). Source, SP, renown, prestige are different. They are always on, so there is no FOMO till next year if you miss a week or so, and the vast quantity of SP can be gathered by building a decent group to go 'farm' them...this week...next week...next month. Not true of a 2 week seasonal in March, once it's closed out.

My line is pretty much at SP. There should be no direct method of 'buying' SP. Yes, we already have those other things for sale, but they are limited to styles, which were always for sale (just cheaper and easier now). Making it so we have a choice between killing 5000 reapers and spending $3 for the feat instead should never happen. Killing 100 WV bounties vs $5 for some feat bundle that includes that one...no thanks.

you CAN buy prestige for your league -

source marks - > catalysts - > donate - > prestige.

and since the elite renown is essentially just a gatekeeping device for 'elite' players, shrug.

ambivalent would be my response.

DON'T LEAVE ME, I CAN CHANGE!!!!!11oneeleven