It's Time To Get Rid of the Death Limit in Elite Content

If they take away the death limit, then call it Expert, so we can call the Normal ones as Novice just like they did with t2 and t3 raids many years ago.

I'm personally against the premise of this idea of removing the death limit. I've had my shares of one shots as a tank. Furthermore, tanks would get one shot in Survival Mode (yes, tanks did indeed die by certain mechanics that were one shots in Survival Mode).

The death limit is fine and it should stay imo, however some of the random unavoidable one shots or overlapping mechanics that cant be avoided by playing correctly need to go. One shots as part of mechanics that can be avoided by playing correctly are great imo and those should stay. No need to remove death limit if unavoidable one shots become a thing of the past going forward.

Enrage timers man I miss those

Leave the challenge for those who enjoy it? The point of the thread isn't to remove the challenge. It's to provide a more natural challenge. Death limit is artificially imposed difficulty, whereas what people are asking for is more genuine difficulty through added mechanics. Obviously this is a lot harder to do than it seems, so I doubt it would ever happen considering you can just set the death limit to 2 and throw in a few predictable one shots in order to more easily arrive at a "challenge."

I personally don't think it is a big deal if they don't get rid of it however. GoME, US Elite and Zoo Elite were all great Elite raids or had the potential to be great if not for numerous bugs in my opinion. Bugs like US Elite Grundy mechanic which bugged until Late August/early September making it impossible to beat legitimately and there were also issues with Strafing Run timers. Zoo E 2nd boss invisible cyclones and last boss random one shots by Lying Claw also made it extremely difficult to beat at CR. However, now that most of these issues are fixed they are somewhat challenging raids in my opinion even if a lot of it is due to the death cap. I believe PanE and Escape E have been a step in the wrong direction in terms of a challenge, and now that SM is all but confirmed to be dead it's a reasonable argument to try and make Elite raids more like SM in certain ways.

So like I said, you think they should remove the death cap and add on further mechanics to the clusterfk of near one-shot mechanics they already jam into one run. Sounds great I'm sure the people that have a problem with the mechanics so much that they are dying 2 times in a fight will deal well with clusterfk mechanics+. There are already so many mechanics going on that sometimes you can't even finish a pickup when the person does have another life. Now you want them to add further mechanics on top of that to make sure those pickups won't happen? You'll end up with a quasi single life mechanic and everyone will be back to the forums crying again.

I personally don't care if they remove death cap or not. I clearly stated that. I just want content to be challenging again, as this DLC was a cakewalk for the most part. Whatever gets us there is fine by me. That said, I do see where people are coming from. Upper rounds of SM were challenging even without a death limit, and pickups were possible at times and sometimes they weren't. It doesn't have to be a clusterfk of mechanics to be difficult.

Welcome to old school video gaming. You either survive or start over.

i guess the equation goes like this: (movement + skill) (luck + RNG) : (difficulity - progress) x0,02 = successrate
while movement, skill, luck and RNG are random samples. the rally restriction gives you exactly two chances.
now, lets say we replace the rally restriction, with X = times needed to get knocked out before gear breaks.

for elite content to feel hard, you need to have a low success rate (otherwhise, anyone could do it, right?)
not included yet is Y = all the times you die while and because you rally your comrades, while role is a factor
lets say, the most important roles for the group dies (tank or healer) that often leads to a chainreaction of death.

oh well, not sure if the calculation is completely accurate. "elite" ppl most likely want to feel outstanding,
heterogen and above average... the question is, how the demand for harder content is achieved like.
lowering it by rally restriction is cheap. to get it out of the equation, it needs to get somehow compensated.

without compensation, elite would allmost be just as easy as normal, or how normal should be like at least.
yet, we want engaging raids were you need to stay cautious or in alert-mode all the time, or you fail and loose.
when difficulty means your stats in comparison to those of the targets, you could raise that as compensation.

of course, the more you raise the difference, the more important becomes movement, skill, luck and RNG...
to some extend, we want luck and RNG kept to a minimum. movement and skill should be the main focus.
if you go for a satisfying successrate, i guess taking out restriction and raise difficult would work like that.

100% disagree on enrage timers, sorry but it's a cheap mechanic used to create a wipe. It pushes DPS into optimal cookie cutter rotations that happen to be the most optimal or FOTM power sets that just happen to be the most "imbalanced". It also penalises groups that might still be good enough to do the content, pay attention to the mechanics but just have slightly slower burn.

Even Survival Mode isn't necessarily about the the fastest burn, it can be about survival.

enrage timers were done in paradox and I think you'll find they were removed because most people did not like them, because of those issues.

If you're wanting to force wipes because of deaths then there's better ways to do it, like role specific mechanics etc.

I’ve never been a big fan of death limits. Death limits, and to a lesser extent, enrage timers, remind me of those days where I used to play LCD screen handheld games with a D pad for movement, and an A and B button at most. Once you got to higher levels, the only way increased difficulty could be implemented was by speeding the game up to a point it was unplayable.

Everyone will differ in opinion, but I do feel there are better ways to implement difficulty over the death limit. More emphasis could be placed on the tank countering, or the troll debuffing. I definitely like any emphasis that is placed on extra teamwork to accomplish a raid. Before death limits, everyone had a responsibility to be aware of pick ups, I feel we’ve lost that a little.

I’m also surprised at this being a superhero game, that we haven’t really had a mechanic where we’re required to protect or rescue a group of civilians.

I agree except 1 point.. no enraged timers, all these do is make people focus on numbers and that leads to failure as they ignore mechanics.. get too focused and ignore tells or picking up of team mates etc

here's the thing: the raids in the event tap can be done completely without support roles and thats awesome!
the normal raids should at least knock you out, if you miss or ignore the mechanics. right now, it doesn't kill.
in elite contend, everything (if not the tank) should kill you instandly. however: the rally restriction is a turn-off.

or going into the opposite direction: make elite raids without one shots (except when skull attack)
and the moment someone dies even once, they get kicked out of the whole instance right away!

because: YOLO ^^

Speaking as someone who main heals Elite raids and SM's (God bless I miss SM ) I think removing the death counter is a good idea. When you do SM the point is to work together as a TEAM. I know that's a shocking concept for some, but it's really a thing. Communication, pickups, paying attention to mechanics, etc, are the keys to having a good runs.

One shots are still a thing post revamp, and so many times I've seen people die to ridiculous circumstances (some avoidable and some unavoidable). Personally I think what makes a team of players "elite" is there ability to work together, overcome the obstacles, and make strong recoveries if poop hits the fan.

If you manage to not have RnG poop on you in Elite content that doesn't make you "elite" imo, that makes you lucky. Let's be real, I have seen people get one shot through Blessing while picking someone up. Rolling away from one boss special attack only to find yourself in another boss's special attack where they just showed up (i.e. Stompa & Mad Harriet). That's just a couple examples out of the many of where RnG just poops on you.

Make Elite content an actual challenge with real mechanics and no death counters. MAKE PEOPLE ACTUALLY HAVE TO WORK TOGETHER AS A TEAM!

I do find it interesting that for years we’ve had repeated requests for the death limit to be removed with no protest that I remember, but now suddenly there is support for the death limit. The same people now wanting a death limit also champion survival mode and want elite to be more like it, but leave out the fact that they were more than happy with SM having no death limit.

But wouldn't it be funnier if someone kept dying in the elite raid to the point where their gear is rendered useless? Limited death is elite and all but can you imagine a couple of limping people in the current boss fight where it becomes useless to pick them up.

Agree to disagree. I believe enrage timers, done properly, would add to the elite experience. I've seen this done in other games and nowhere do they stack DPS. If you're in an elite raid, your DPS SHOULD BE ON POINT. It's an elite raid. I've done multiple elite raids where you run 5 DPS and only 2 or 3 of them are doing damage. You could do the same amount with those 2 or 3, rather than 5. If the mechanics were there to where you just could not stack DPS, well, you take care of problem #1 - DPS stacking.

There should be mechanics that aren't avoidable. You should want more than 1 tank. There should be more than 1 healer. Take for instance the Dr Light fight in Prison Break Elite. He put a debuff on the tank. After 4 stacks, you'd be dead if Dr Light hit you again. That's a great example of needing to have another tank to taunt after those 4 stacks. Sure, you could get around it with supers, etc. But if you couldn't? Where's the extra DPS? You can't sacrifice a tank to get another DPS. Another example, first boss of Prison Break. That was a great healer check. Those turrets doing all that damage if you didn't take them down, really made the healers work. What if you couldn't destroy them? What if it was too much damage for one healer to health through. There's another healer added to your group. One less DPS.

If the enrage timers were centered around having 2 or 3 DPS, then you wouldn't need to stack anything. If mechanics weren't avoidable, people COULDN'T stack DPS. But that's not the case with this game. You have multiple ways to get around "hard" content. I see people do it all the time in pug groups. Or ask for specific things in pug groups. (joker jetpack anyone?) Which is why I have a hard time taking this thread seriously. If people really want a challenge, why take away the #1 challenge, staying alive? I'm not talking about dying to a broken mechanic or dying to a random one shot that you can't avoid. Most of the boss attacks in the last few raids are 100% avoidable. Yet people die to them all the time, even if they're called out. Even if the person's actual name is called out and told to block. They still die. At some point, you gotta realize, these people do not belong in elite if they're not going to follow the mechanics.

well, i played SM till round 10 only, most of the times, just cause.
i remember ursa one shotting everyone with the blink of an eye...
and it was actually a lot of fun to try hard in worst case szenarios,
say, multiple ppl getting knocked out and the remaining went there,
picking up our comrades, in the hope to get all back... what a rush!

my calculation formula still stands up there ^
pls check it out and tell me if it is accurately...

I agree with you, they should make elite content just like survival mode.

I don't get the "players won't care about blocking and avoiding because they are going to get picked up" argument, if someone in your group does that, then he's not good enough to beat the elite and should change the way he's playing. Elite should be for, well, the elite.
Old elites should stay the way they are, with the changes being only in the future ones. Death limit creates artificial difficulty and prevents the raids from having cool mechanics and hard hitting bosses.

I don't think one shots are a problem if they are like the SM ones (there is a skull, the boss says what he's going to do and it's up to you to avoid), but all elites we have are basically a luck party, sometimes a good group can't beat a boss easily because they were unlucky and someone got stunned by a random lasso during the boss attack.

Elite also needs more unique mechanics, like the HH 2nd boss that brings both at the same time, so it feels different and not just a boosted normal version. I really hope DELUGE has new things and isn't like the old episodes.

I see a lot of complaints about how there isn’t anything hard to do in DC. And now we have a thread asking to remove the last semi-difficult thing left in content.

This place is a complete joke.