Update: Nuanced Scoreboard

But that's kind of the problem if you're running with 5 dps the lowest dps means nothing. The content wasn't designed for 5 dps, therefore problem lies with dps or tank or troll or healer not doubt the mechanics or one of the other three roles doing a poor job themselves. Now if you're running two or three dps the lowest dps can actually be the problem. Basically what I'm saying is the scoreboard doesn't give an instant solution to where the problem is, watching your team in instance will really show

well the scoreboard shows clearly to me where the problem is if a raid goes south... based on the Deaths of every single groupmember and i start to kick the one with most first , i dont care if this guy is top dps if we cant finish the raid and he has most deaths he getting replaced !

its really simple and we always finish after we adjust the group that way :

- if a heal has most deaths he clearly sucks , votekick
- if a tank has most deaths he clearly sucks , votekick
- if a troll has most deaths he doesnt know mechanics, votekick
- if a dps has most deaths he doesnt care mechanics or doesnt know, what matters is the total damage done, votekick

People never said they cant deal with the scoreboard. If players cant deal with the scoreboard they would have quit a long time ago. Just like new players do now by quitting because of scoreboard discrimination.

The scoreboard is not an accurate tool to determine the problem in the group. Any other action MMO can show you that you dont need a scoreboard to tell you what is going wrong in the instance.

If you need a scoreboard to determine what is wrong, then that is a lack of personal awareness.

I dont need a scoreboard to tell me how low the controllers vit, or if the tank isnt holding aggro or taking too much damage. I dont need a scoreboard to tell me out of the 5 dps in the group the burn is slow.

But most deaths could be because the tank isn't holding aggro, healer isn't healing well enough there can be more things at play

I like the score board and love it when me or my team are on top. I will chase it no matter what the cost. Every player should strive to be the best. I am a bad guy and I do bad things but what I do that is good is kill things.

The content was designed to be able to beat in more ways than one. The content wasnt designed to solely be able to beat it with just 2 or 3 dps. I dont understand why several people in this thread are claiming that it is. Like i said before, they give you the option to beat it in other ways just like they give you the option to fight or skip adds at times.

u dont collect alot of deaths before u notice heal or tank is sleeping

Devs test each content with 2-2-2-2 setup before launching the content. Devs state that they beat all non elite raids with a 2-2-2-2 setup. Meaning with 2 dps they completed the content in a timely manner. So for groups that have 5 dps and still cant get the burn right. What does that say. To me it says that they have 5 crappy dps even if only 1 or 2 are slacking, or it says the support roles cannot handle it alone.

This is not new knowledge and is a known fact and has been since launch of this game in 2011. Devs in fact had a play stream of them going 2-2-2-2 in nexus. I dont see how hard it is to grasp that content can be completed with 2 dps.

What I'm saying is with 5 dps no one should even consider burn from the lowest dps being the issue, anything can be cleared with 2 dps. So if you aren't getting it done with 5 dps the lowest dps isn't the issue unless the lowest dps is dragging a massive one shots aoe to hit and kill the group or doing something like not grabbing pentagrams (UM) or doing pick ups.

As many times as this thread has been brought up, it is clear that removing the scorecard would be detrimental to the financing of this game. Regardless of your opinion, until there is a financial benefit in removing the scorecard this is a moot point to discuss.

Yes, key word is they TEST it with that setup. If they really wanted us to play the 2-2-2-2 setup then they can make the mechanics to where we are forced to go into that setup like they did with throne of the dead or HH. The same goes for skipping adds. If they wanted us to fight all adds then they can simply put up a wall that opens only after killing the adds in most instances.

I dont see how hard is to grasp that content can be completed in more ways than one, especially when they give us the option to.

The whole point of a 5 DPS group is to have good enough burn to clear the content easier and faster. The 5-1-1-1 group is not meant for long survival, so you should not be running in groups with this setup if you are a dps that does not have good burn. The lowest burn will hinder the group to the point where they wont complete it since they wont survive as long because there is only 1 healer.

Hell of a strawman you've built. No one said the scoreboard will be able to tell you everything about everyone's performance in an instance. But it IS the only way to get a relative spread of DPS numbers. If someone's CR is considerably lower, then obviously they're going to be lagging behind. But you take that into consideration. Just like in UM, if someone is the martyr on a lot of demons, the DPS numbers on that guy are going to skyrocket. Is someone constantly in the lantern battery in BN? Numbers are going to drop. Do some people not know how to interpret the numbers? Yes. But taking away the only glimpse we have into what sort of output someone is doing isn't the answer.

I disagree entirely.

Burn isn't the reason groups fail. Ineptitude is. At the end of the day, each boss has a rotation of mechanics. These mechanics can be avoided/worked around to ensure the group stay alive. The only mechanic in which burn is important is if there is an enrage time attached and very few (I can't even remember any post Nexus/Paradox) bosses enrage due to a slow burn.

Ultimately, if your group is wiping, it's because of a lack of attention, understanding or even just bad luck. None of these are measured on the scoreboard.

But because the community is full of so many clueless end-game players, many of them couldn't tell you why you just wiped, so they instantly jump on the scoreboard and start blaming the person with the lowest damage or whatever stat they want.

It's a tool for bad and the reasons why groups wipe can't be identified from information on the scoreboard. We all have access to damage parsers now, so we can judge our own performance from that and work at getting better. There isn't any purpose for the scoreboard to exist in PVE any more. So get rid of it. Or at the very least, keep it quiet until the instance is over. That way, leagues and friends can still compare DPS **** sizes amongst each other.

I vote to kick scoreboard

I agree exactly! Thats why I believe if the scoreboard gave us more information, it could actually be a useful tool. Would you be opposed to a more detailed numbers oriented summary of whats going on in the raid if the scoreboard offered it?

I like it, I'd even go a step further in taking out 'add damage' entirely. They're just the garbage you have to get through before real fight, it has no bearing on success or failure of the raid (more often than not) and it just needlessly inflates the scoreboard giving "credit" to whichever powers can front load their damage the best.
I'm so damned tired of watching people race to the next set of adds. If they took that damage off the board, I think we'd all be better off.

I love this post! You are right that the numbers do not necessarily reflect what happened during the content!

The original post was about the usefulness of a more detailed scoreboard, not only to look at the other members stats but for self evaluation as well. I think part of the problem that you have captured here is that the scoreboard is used ONLY as a means to kick someone, but I think if the scoreboard offered more details we as a community can begin to move away from that line of thinking. Thoughts?

I agree! Think how the scoreboard now influences bad play in the raids, its all for the race to the top....but what if the top was a measure of efficeny/ actual DPS? Would be an interesting change and stop DPS from sabotaging the raid lol.

We have different playstyles, and that's ok. You apparently like to take twice as long running with training wheels and we like to walk a tightrope to keep it more interesting and faster paced. Don't take away my ability to play how I like to play just because you like a different style. IDIC