GU 43: Fire Tanking Improvements

Let me get this straight-
You suggest a HEALTH BUFF, a HIGHER RESTO BUFF, a LOWER COST/COOL DOWN period, Power REARRANGEMENT, turning a SUPERCHARGE into a normal power?

Seriously?
This is your definition of "A little more strong"? And you've been arguing with me on the basis of this all this time?
You argue with me all this time about fire being just as effective and then come up with this list?


I'm glad we had this conversation, if the player base and devs have any sense of proper judgement this is all they need, to see the point I have been trying to make. You have a wishlist that will make any tanking power OP, and you come to this thread and bash people asking for essential updates like long range pull for what? Just to feel good about your-self?

Feel free to have the last word, I am not bothering replying to you anymore.

Good luck with your broken keyboard

I made the point, you just missed it. Anyone that is Fire Tanking and Skills into WM is doing it wrong. Anyone that is Fire Tanking, Skills into WM then comes here to complain about the powerset is not just doing it wrong but is showing their ignorance of the very basics of Tanking.

You mentioned it as an example but it's an example that not only should never happen (since we are talking only about current top-end content), but even bringing it up as an example infers the aforementioned ignorance.

You want actual suggestions for Fire Tanking top-end content? Here ya go (in no particular order):

1. Forget about doing DPS
2. Don't get Fiery Weapon
3. Don't Skill into Weapon Mastery for anything but the buffs
4. If your Power bar doesn't include Burning Determination and Burnout, fix that asap
5. You should have Backdraft (my preference) or Low Pressure to do AE pulls
6. You should have Fireball or Lasso to get single-target aggro (Lasso is the better utility, but I like Fireball better because it fits my theme)
7. Focus on combat mechanics to give yourself immunity and damage your opponent, remove the word "combo" from your vocabulary while you are Tanking
8. Pan the camera out a bit and be swiveling it often to make sure you have all the aggro
9. Don't aggro more than 8 at one time (that's the aggro limit)
10. When aggro'ing many enemies (like LW), Block a lot so the enemies give you almost constant immunity
11. Get all of the Dom, Health & the Healing% innates you can, Resto takes a back seat unless you need it to open the WM innates
12. Pay attention to the direction the boss is facing and face them away from the group
13. Hit a Power at least every 8 seconds to hold aggro (it's most likely going to average out to be more like 4 due to having to recapture bosses after a scripted event)
14. Don't get Snuff Out
15. Do get the +Healing innates from the Iconics tree
16. Don't get either of the Detonate powers
17. If at least 4 of your loaded Powers don't heal you, fix that

Those are just off the top of my head. If you need more, feel free to ask.

-Dom gives just enough Health.
-The heals are plenty strong enough with the current Resto buff. I'll be interested to see how it scales with the next Tier though.
Seriously, if we wipe in LW while I am Tanking, I am usually the last guy standing. Considering where Fire Tanking was and where it is now, I'm not seeing your reasoning on this.
-Spammable Backdraft? There's no reason for that at all. The better fix is to be able to move Stunned mobs.
-Do you mean Immo and Enflame? They don't do the exact same, but are extremely close. Many long-time Fire folks (DPS & Tank) agree these two should be combined and we get another Power to replace it (my preference is another HoT since that would be much more in line with the SOE vision for Fire than a single-target pull).
-No bruh... 10 seconds of God Mode, by definition, is a SC. Just be glad it's not 100% any longer.

See, what a magnificent player he is. A lot of what is said from Mag here is correct. There should be no reason to DPS as a tank, that defeats the purpose of the tank. Though, I have felt Backdraft should have a longer range and a slightly shorter cool down. I have used lasso as a single target pull and it works fairly well. I have not seen the new bonuses to the buffs, but every other tier fire seems to be ahead of the power curve and then the next tier comes along and it lacks the oomph for the content. I know people can do it and have done any content in the game with the right level of gear for that end content. However, more times than not, people look for the easiest route to getting their marks and fire will be pushed to the back. Healing buffs are great, but will that be enough for the incoming damage presented by mobs and the boss? The mobs are hitting harder and harder and the hit points a fire tank has may not compensate for it all. A few league mates that PUG outside our scheduled runs do comment on the tough time fire tanks have in raids, and how taxing it is on the healer or how much easier it is to PUG with an ice or rage tank.

The real problem is that any change to fire effects both PvE and PvP. When people show how difficult a fire tank is or how easy it is they get a buff or a nerf. In my opinion aside from the healing buff, a fire tank in PvE gear should get a slightly stronger defensive buff when blocking, not a shield like ice, not pet mitigation like earth, or a rage crash absorption. I am trying not to get into the numbers when dealing with fortified block and other base or league bonuses but something that only happens to fire when in tank role, with a power ability on, and either blocking or a short window out of block. There is another possibility, but that could also mean attacks performed on fire tanks by mobs and bosses could have a special debuff to their attack power for normal attacks that lasts for as long as they attack the tank and if that boss or mob selects a new target that debuff is worn off after 1-2 seconds. Again, this should only apply for PvE and not PvP.

I am not trying to get too radical in my approach to what fire needs, but I do feel that while healing buffs are great there needs to be something more that prevents this discussion from reoccurring over and over again. The real deal with fire is that the tanking mechanic is both its greatest asset and biggest hurdle. There is no way around it, fire is a heal-tank powerset.

Also, while your at it, any way to remove the cast times from a few of those other powers, in fire, to speed it up? Compared to other powersets that deliver great burst damage, with no cast times, just makes fire that much more slow and clumsy. At this point, cast bars are not really necessary. The bonus of the 60% went to the max damage hand mod that is now spread to all powersets.

All in all, from the feedback given the buffs are a definite improvement and I may actually go on test to play with fire again. To all the fire folks still walking tall I salute you.

If I was ignorant, you know what I'd do? I'd tell everyone that there is only one way to tank, my way, and no one should ever be using a particular skill-set while tanking. I don't blame you, there are a lot of tanks in the game who had no idea what tanking is before they started playing DC, and they all share this common idea that if you are a tank your only job is to get aggro and block.

The fact that you posted this long list of abc's tells me you think very little of other tanks and their capabilities.
I was referring to suggestions to the Devs regarding the power set improvement in general. If I need suggestions for tanking, forum is the last place I'll be looking for it. But thank you nonetheless.

One of the best fire tanks I played with used to be in Freedom Reborn, I don't know if he is still there, but he used to use smoke bomb mastery to make adds choke. Out of the respect for him I wont drag this any more.
Peace

Actually Kaiser the original concept of fire tank was a damage tank in much the same way as rage (more or less). Back in the good old days of early dcuo when fire wasn't horribly broken/ neutered it used to heal extremely well and damage enemies. In other words a fire tank could give almost as well as it got which is why the energy cost for using a power was so high; high heals and high damage. When pvpers complained about fire being "OP" kind of like they did rage the devs nerfed the heals and the damage but didn't lower the cost, that remained the same and still does because fire was supposed to be a damage tank for raids.

From what I have read of the recent post I get the impression that you think cyberpunk and many others like myself are suggesting changes that would essentially eliminate what makes fire unique. This is not the case. The new update was a significant step towards fixing fire (something the devs broke in the first place) but it was just that, a STEP. Like many, as stated through out the thread I'm good enough to tank with the best of of them like ice but I have to work harder at it. This work involves pulling a multi target pull from something other than my tree and working my build to make an effective healer/ tank since essential tank powers are scattered throughout the trees, a bygone I might add from the days when the trees were supposed to be more or less similar.

This is no longer the case. Fire should be streamlined in much the same way as ice or rage with utilities within the trees. I shouldn't have to pull outside to be comparable and I shouldn't have to choose between survivablity and utility when deciding which pull to incorporate, backdraft (heal/ pull PBAOE with a long recharge or low pressure= long range multitarget pull). When I run my ice the only time I pull outside of the tree is for passives and HL shield all of which are optional and even after that I still have a remaining power point to spend. Fire doesn't afford that. So yes the trees should be revamped with certain abilities within those trees merged to allow for new powers such as a multitarget pull should a player desire it. I'm on the fence about a shield but I will say this, ice has that ice golem or monster that a player can transform into. As an ice tank that is the supercharge I keep in my bar. I rarely use it and when I do its truely an oh **** moment. Why can't fire tanks have a fire form ALA Human Torch or the DC analogue Fire in which anything close while in that form catches fire, is an instant taunt (damn being on fire) and functions sort of like a shield by burning all that gets in its corona ?

There's no "if" to it. Anyone using not-being-able-to-WM-as-a Fire-Tank as an example of how something with the powerset needs to be fixed is -by the very definition of the word- ignorant. They are ignorant of what a Fire Tank does and how best to do it. Many people have spent many long hours creating the multiple Fire Tanking guides that bear this out.

But feel free to continue to try to deflect your inadequacies onto the powerset (and onto me for pointing out your error). While you're trying to WM as a Tank and failing, I'll continue Tanking and winning.

1) One of the many things the fire communtiy agrees is that since we dont have a damage mitigation/prevention, Fire should have more health. I agree with that. Not much more though. And im asking for one or the other (dom or health buff), not both at the same time.
2) Resto and heals are strong enough for the people who can afford the SP. This shouldt be like that.
3) Moving around, spamming Backdraft would make not having a AoE range pull something less important.
4) Yes, i was referring to those two. I know they dont do the same thing and their differences. A new HoT (stackable with StokeFlames and Burning Det,)is what i would like also.
5) Thats what i thought before they improved Burning Det. God mode yes, but as i said, have a long cooldown. And reduce a little bit the duration. This would be like the Reflect version of Fire (for example). [Im not saying that it should be a shield]

I can see where you're coming from here, just looking at different ways to fix it.

1. I would rather see a slight tweak to how much our Defense mitigates, maybe base it on equipped CR. I think going after health increases just kicks the can down the road.

2. Agreed For a good while SP had become close to superfluous. I like that it matters for Fire Tanks.

For EF & Backdraft: Keep in mind that if they make the changes you are suggesting they will also nerf something like the level of healing given to balance it out. Because of that I am not for neither change.

the job of any tank, not only fire, is to keep aggro and farm immunities if possible ( not only block) but not like in ur example roundhouse smokebombs ... while this works well in alerts or below content it may end deadly in raids ... especially survivalmode , just not worth the risk ... a good tank knows when he can do what he wants to do without maximizing the risk !

my point is : if u want to use WM as Tank feel free to do so but not in my raid group.

Spack2k. I use WM with my ice tank quite often in raids. I agree that a tanks job is to keep aggro and part of the mechanic in doing that is hitting the enemy to piss them off so the attention remains on you. In the early days fire was the king of pissing enemies off because they were a damage tank. As fire tanks we already pay a high price just for trying to keep aggro because when the devs broke the set in part by nerfing the damage they never lowered the cost. You can use WM with rage as well and still tank. If there are problems with using WM as a fire tank then to me its obvious the set needs further revamps much like many of the other sets including ice or gadgets got.

Magnificent I fail to see how using WM as part of your tanking is ignorant. Like I said to Korlick fire was meant to be a damage tank in the early days. As a long time fire tank I'm sure you remember this as well and probably played the set to greater efficiency than I at the time. Fire was supposed to be high damage and high heals, hence the steep cost when activating a power. I use WM quite a bit when tanking with my ice and still survive quite well and I know many rage tanks who do the same and are virtuosos in keeping alive and holding mobs. If using WM while tanking becomes an issue of surviving while tanking perhaps the set itself and not the player needs further scrutiny. Part of surviving is the ability to burn (pardon the pun) an enemy down. Fire is in need of an overhaul and while the recent changes were a step in the right direction they were just a step. The trees need a serious overhaul with some powers combined to make room for more effective ones.

Why is backdraft our pull something we cant get till around level 12 while ice and rage start off with their LONG RANGE MULTITARGET PULL right off the bat? Why are there stun immunities built into ice shields (one of them at least, I can't remember the name of the power) but no stun resistance or immunity built into fires heals? There is a break out power same as ice but in the interest of survival the small heal it provides is not enough to make it into my load bar. As I'm sure many fire tanks have experienced, particularly in t6 content a fire tank getting stunned can be devastating to a team and blocking since there is block break won't stop it. There is something else I have to do with fire that I do not with ice and that is change out my load bar.

I have really noticed this in T6 content but in order to effectively hold and keep the bosses attention/ aggro on me I have to switch out immolation to fireball for the single target taunt and depending on if i need that extra bit of survivability, like in zamaron as was mentioned multiple times withing the threads backdraft ( I switched out backdraft for low pressure for the long range multiple target pull at the expense of extra heals/ survivability in part due to backdraft limited range and the extra long recharge time) for survivability. This is something I do not have to do with ice or rage ice has snow ball the analogue of fires fireball but I do not have to load that in since inescapable storm seems to be more than enough and popping one close range damage ability seems to be enough to hold the bosses attention for the 12 seconds it last. I don't think its out of line or shows some sort of deficiency in a player to suggest that a set needs an overhaul when clearly it does. Just look at gadgets or hard light both of which are enjoying a new Renaissance because of the changes made and both still retain their individuality. Shouldn't fire get the same treatment?

When you have an immunity, there are short WM combos you can fit in before it wears off. That drops your power consumption, and fire uses enough power that a % drop is a big deal.

When you knock people down with powers like Enflame or Backdraft, you can hit them with the beginning of longer combos while they're down. And some of the longer ones knock people down again right around the time they are getting back up. It's easiest to learn with the non-WM 2H Home Run, where the later swings can scatter a small cone of enemies. Some of the WM combos work even better, because you also get the power savings.

Power reduction is always helpful, and knocked down enemies do no damage at all. If you're not using WM combos to maximize both of those things, you really need to revisit who is doing it wrong.

Not new to Fire tanking but I have not tanked with Fire for the last 2 years, so a lot has changed. My current loadout is interesting I think. Not sure if anyone else is playing with it or not but I thought I would mention it since Fire tanks are known to be heavy on the power use.
Loadout
Enflame, Backdraft, Lasso, Stoke Flames, Burning Determination, and Flame Cascade.
Most of it is pretty basic. 2 pulls one aoe and one single target, 2 heals, but this is where it is a bit different...I think. Again not sure how anyone else is using it. I have Flame Cascade on my loadout. I use it like this. Jump into a group of adds and throw BD and Backdraft. I should now have all the agro and the adds nicely situated around me. Block for 3 secs or so throw FC. It tends to juggle most of the adds depending on how they are situated, block for another 3 sec or so and hit Backdraft to regroup any that wonder off. I also find that FC is nice to target those adds that port behind the team in Zam.

Plus side is that I can keep this power up because of the AM and it will cost me no power to use which helps the power consumption considerably. Another plus is that it is a juggle and has a great range to it.

Negative, it seems to be a bit hard to target at times, and I have to throw it every 6 seconds to maintain the AM (not a big deal I do not think)

Again not sure if anyone else is using this with their tanking or not, but thought I would mention it since I am having fun with it.

Help me out. If I try to argue with you you'll take it as a personal thing and drag this for the next few pages, If I try to explain my argument you'll call me ignorant and if I don't say anything the whole point of being here is nothing.

I'll try, just keep in mind I don't know you and you don't know me. You have never seen me tanking, and like I said earlier it is very easy to think some one is not good as you if they disagree with you.

I was trying to point out the limitations fire tank has at present, of course you can tank every piece of content with fire, If you couldn't we wouldn't be having the conversation. problem is, most part of these contents are not so challenging to begin with, and some people think just because they can survive these contents they are awesome tanks and feel it as a duty to come here and show other people how good(!) they are. You wont see these people in a Carol fight unless they are CR 109, you wont see them in higher rounds of SM. And almost none of them has ever tried out a load out that is different than what they had memorized when they started tanking. This is the reason even if they struggle in some content, they'd rather play with the same 3 powers than not knowing what to do if those powers got updated.

A very good example of this is one of my earlier conversations. If you read the whole conversation you'll see, the OP starts telling fire can be as effective as other powers in any situations and if some one has problem with fire they basically suck. And after a long conversation the same person comes up with a list that includes fire getting one of it's SCs turned into a normal power.

The whole point of me mentioning WM, as I have said earlier is to show that this is something we don't have the luxury of doing.
WM is not role restricted, and you cannot show me a single dev telling that tanks are not allowed to use it. In fact any decent rage/Ice/Earth tank can use WM (No reason needed, just because they like it) and tank any raid in the game. I don't know why you wouldn't take anyone in your raid if he can do his job and have fun with WM at same time. Now I am not saying if I should use WM or not (That's entirely a personal preference), I am saying with fire in most situations I couldn't, even if I wanted to. This is to point out fire has this limitation, not to tell people whether they should or shouldn't use WM. You said a good tank knows when he can do what he wants to do without maximizing the risk, the point I was trying to make is that with fire it's almost always the maximum risk.

But of course as it turns out just because some "expert" people cannot pull off these greater risk situations, they pretty much feel and tell people that it's not intended for them, so that they can maintain their high level of ego. No tank would depend on smoke bomb mastery for tanking, it's not a necessity, it's part of the fun game play. Just because someone isn't good enough to have some fun while tanking doesn't mean you are not supposed to as well.

This might or might not seem like a huge deal, but if you think why fire tanks cannot take these risks while others can, you'd actually start to see why fire isn't simply a match to the other tanking powers in high octane situations and figure out exactly what needs to be updated yourself.

Hope you can see my point.

A fire tank can use WM in all the content. The difference we have over other tanks is we have to learn to time it wisely.


Wrong. There are videos of fire tanks tanking last boss fight with 102 cr and another one with only 1500 dominance.


Yes fire tanks can use a update but a huge update isn't needed. Couple changes like a long range pull, add a slightly bigger health buff and long range group pull. That's really all fire needs.

Yes fire tanks can use a update but a huge update isn't needed. Couple changes like a long range pull, add a slightly bigger health buff and long range group pull. That's really all fire needs.[/quote]

You really think the trees dont need to be reworked, powers like enflame and immolation combined into 1 or what is burnout ? the 25 percent supercharge heal made into a regular charged power to make room for a better actual supercharge that functions like oh **** ice monster transformation not needed ? What about upping the damage a fire tank does or lowering the cost of powers since it no longer does the damage it was intended to do ?

So you have to have high resto just to heal yourself a lot. I thought fire was based on health?

The Hardlight shield works great with Fire as well, as far as a healing move.