GU 43: Fire Tanking Improvements

Yes he died alot but he was in dps gear yet they still beat it. What does that tell you? It tells me fire is more than capable to tank ANY content. Maybe your just not as good with fire as you think you are because fire can handle L&w easily. My only problem i have with fire is no group long range pull and the long cool down on backdraft.

With minimal stats I can pull every single damn add instantly, pull off a 4 step WM combo, clip 2/3 low costing powers to get my health/defense through the roof, counter Carol, /dance a bit, and rinse and repeat the whole process (Cause hey my entire groups still not wiped yet!). Show me doing that with fire whatever way it is done.

If you have both Burning Det and Stoke Flames active you can do that. Maybe not the dance part but the rest, it can be done.

There is no way to instantly pull adds from range, the health buff from Burning Determination and Stoke Flames is not more than any other powers in the tree, and if you have low stats, it is not enough to prevent one shots (may be 2 or 3) if you get out of block for a long WM or a counter when the adds are not CCd and the healer is sloppy.
I don't want to be mean but it's people like you who make the devs think that fire doesnt require a proper update.
You'd rather try to make a point than admit that the power has limitations. Just because you are capable of tanking with a weak power doesn't mean its not weak. The truth is the amount of effort and skill that's needed to pull off fire tanking is significantly greater than the other powers, and when put to extreme situations, an equally skilled rage or ice tank will do a lot better with less or similar efforts. This is a fact.
A lot better tanks than you and me, who know fire like back of their hands, gave up fire tanking for the same reasons.
So don't pull that "you can do everything with fire" crap.

If you tank her in the middle of the room, you dont need long range pulls. Just like the Zamaron alert.

Why would i do that without CCing the adds first?

And here is were you made personal assumptions about someone you dont even know, you dont even run content with and you know nothing about.
I know very well the limitations of fire. And im always in favor of stronger revamp to fire tank (and DPS too). If youve readed my posts during the revamps (before and after), you wouldnt be doing wrong assumptions with all that "is because of people like you bla bla bla" crap.

It is because we don't need a big update. Fire is fine besides the long cooldown of backdraft and a long range group pull. And why does fire have to be easy mode? IMO fire should require some skill and that's what we have now. fire can handle every piece of content we have and will handle the next dlc.

What makes you think every piece of content they release will just be like Zamaron alert?

Is this even a question? The fight isn't scripted, you cant memorize or execute a sequence of actions every time, or respond to them in a predetermined way.

And this is where I draw the line. If you seriously think you are the best fire tank in the game then that just only proves my previous statement.
Peace

This was my mistake. I thought it would be clear and obvious.
Was making a reference to the Carol Ferris/Fatality fight, which happens in the same place. Because all this comes from your post about doing this or that in that room in particular.

Didnt say i do that. That was you, just guessing.

And this is you again, guessing and making wrong assumptions.
Really? Where did i say im the best? How do you even get that from that quote?
Go back to school and learn about reading comprehension.

It's clear to me, by reading all the posts in this thread, that most gamers here don't realize the importance of balance. Without counting the last raid, most Fire tanks can't complete the end-game content without first attaining the most current end-game gear. Ice on the other hand can. Not only can Ice finish the end game content easier but its survivability is much more reliable than fire's. Of course a good Fire tank with a great Healer can complete all content, my concern is why does Ice have the easy way through, or Rage tanks for that matter? Why does fire have a buff that heavily relies on Healers where Rage and Ice don't? ( I can't say anything about Earth because I've never tried that ability out, sorry Earth users. You are more than welcome to enlighten me as to how earth interacts with Healers in raids through PM.) I feel my personal skill with my Fire tank should be enough to help get the most current raids done just like a good Ice or Rage can, but that is not the case. If I raid with a mediocre Healer, we will not get it done. I can run the same raid with the same Healer as an Ice tank and I would be able to finish the raid despite the handicap of the Healer. This is where I would like to see the balance in this game. On a side note, with the content difficulty bar being lowered and with the gap of veteran and new players closing due to the changes of mechanics which ( in my opinion ) is taking the skill out of the game ( I apologize to all that statement may offend but it is how I feel and offending people is not my intent ). All these changes my not be needed. The content from the last DLC was much easier to finish than the usual difficult content I was use to. Yes I finished the raid with my Fire tank, but I also finished it much easier with my Ice tank with the same group. The powers aren't balanced and they should be if content is going to be old school difficult otherwise if its going to be a walk in the park like the last DLC then Fire is fine for the easy raids we get to look forward to.

Earth depends on healers almost as much as Fire. Earth tank would need to block most of the time making grouping adds and for example countering Carol's channeling attack a harder job since we take excessive damage while not blocking.

Weak spots for Fire and Earth are showing when facing many mobs.
Beside improving Movement mode pulls available to Acrobatic and Superspeed to be multi target like it is for Fliers, Epicenter and Backdraft should give heal increasing for every extra mob like Backdraft used to be ages ago.

I don't get it. Do you agree fire needs a long range instant aoe pull, or not?

Here's what you said:

If you're going to wait every time for the enemey npcs to be CCd, 8/10 times you'll miss the short window to counter the boss which nowadays directly translates to the boss doing a special attack wiping more or less the entire group. I'm curious, what do you do when you have to interrupt the boss but some random big hitting npc has immunity? Wait for the group to wipe?

Let me tell you how logic works.
This thread is about the recent fire update and giving the devs feedbacks on the changes, but you have wasted more words simply telling people you can do this or that with fire rather than anything constructive. You admit fire needs a strong revamp/update, yet at the same time you are trying to argue that you can be equally effective at tanking with fire as any other powers. So either you are the best fire tank in the game, or you need to work on your ego issues.

English isn't my first language, but I can point out at least half a dozen grammatical errors in that paragraph. Unless you have something to say about the update that is actually constructive, I'm done with your trolling.

So i was right. Almost everything you said about me or what i said, was just you guessing.

Need? no. Would be nice to have? yes.

There is no big hit from the adds that can one-shot a tank. The only thing that can one-shot a tank is Carol.
If ALL the adds have immunity at the same time and you cant CC them, then someone is doing something wrong.

And im not trolling at all. Ive already said what i needed and what i thought about this update. But im tired of people who wants all the power to be played the same way.
"Ice has this" "Rage has that" switch powers and stop whining.

Fire tanking needs to be a little more strong? Yes. But it can get the job done. Is it too hard? switch powers and stop whining.

For the love of fire. I was a fire user for many years until I became so disgruntled with the powerset that I made a switch to something that works toward my particular play style. That being said, a lot of what is being said here is similar to what has been said in years past. Fire relies too much on a healer and gear. Fire NEEDS the stats. Rage tanks have two mechanics: the health buff for enemies and the rage crash. This means that the mobs are a benefit to rage, whereas to fire it is not. These trash mobs hit like trucks, even compared to bosses. Now there are great fire users out there that can tank really well. M31, is a great tank (USPC) and so is my fellow leaguemate, Magnificent. (USPC). But Ice is always the easier tank to play. FoS content people wanted ice tanks. Fire pulls were weak and could not handle the hits for the level of gear for that progression. Nexus and Paradox Fire was again put at a disadvantage. The mobs hit so hard and with counters applied to the turtle tanking made fire a tough sell. If any of you were ever in the LFG channels or in shouts could remember raids asking for ice tanks only. Phase dodge was a big compliment to fire users, when it was actually useful. After the tier 5 nonsense, I gave up wanting to be a fire tank or any tank for that matter. There are people better suited for the job, and have more skill than I do. I am not saying I was horrible at tanking, but fire lacks in comparison to the others. With the new content coming out I hope that fire is not thrust in the background in favor of the tanks with better defensive mechanics. One can only wait to see.

Am I reading this correctly? Are you specc'd into WM as a tank?? If I am reading it correctly then it's not the powerset that needs to be fixed, it's your loadout and understanding of what a Tank does and how a Tank does it.

I've successfully tanked this as CR109 and any issue with it is NOT with Fire. I've even had to swap with Tanks of other powersets in order for the group to complete the fight. No, the problem isn't with the powerset.

Yet another post trying to make a personal point rather than making any actual suggestion. Pulling off a large WM combo for whatever reason, save power /cc npcs ( yes some of them can do that too) or simply for fun, is a luxury that most of the time that fire tanks cannot afford. That was my point. It is very easy to think the others aren't as good as you when you don't agree with them to some point, but please don't address me to a post where the whole point of the post is telling me you are good and I am not. I have tanked fortress with 65 CR, prime/black dawn with 73 CR, Nexus with 95 CR, and Love and War with 105/106 CR but that doesn't prove anything when it comes to limitations of the powerset. Unlike OP I have seen many of your posts that are actually helpful and respect your personal opinion. But please keep them on the matters that matters. Only reason I am here is to provide some honest feed back, I don't have time or energy to waste on fighting random people on a MMO forum.

And were here to tell you that fire isn't the problem, fire can handle the raids. We have shown prove of it. What is so wrong with having a power require some skill?

Why do you keep referring to the Carol fight? Have you ever tried tanking ravager and sentry at the same time when tyrant is free and 2 of your group members are down? (I don't know how long you've been playing, or if you'd ever run the raid before it was nerfed and everyone got the fancy new gear) But trust me it wasn't fun.

Balance doesn't mean every power set has to have exact same mechanic. Balance means they having the options to be played at same (or close) effectiveness when put to similar situations.

Why do you think every power set has an advanced mechanic for Damage role? It's to make sure all of them has similar DPS potential, in theory, at least (Even though you can beat every content with every power sets damage role without even using its AM). Do all the advanced mechanics works the same way? No. Fire can have its own mechanic and it can be equally effective at the same time.

A lot of people has this idea that fire shouldn't get update cause they like its "challenge part."
The thing most people dont understand is challenges should be part of the content, if you find it challenging using your power set then something is not right. Think of a fun, challenging shooting game that you have played recently.
Was it challenging because the way the devs designed the fighting sequence, or was it challenging because your keyboard was missing a key? would you be actually having same level of fun in both cases?

Before you rush to make an argument just because you have to, think about what I said for minute.

The improvement to fire with this last update is great but let's be honest. If it were not for the fortified blocking v mod fire would be minimally better than what it was before. Without that mod our heals would not keep us alive as well as the other tanking powers. That one mod has helped fire tanks a lot more than the resto buff and extra healing updates. However with the new updates and the mod fire tanking survivability has greatly increased. I tanked love and war and survived long after our only healer was knocked out. I survived through at least 3 of Carol's one shots. I only got knocked out because the rest of the group got knocked out and I had no more power. The fire power itself is definitely not a problem at all. You can't compare fire to ice in any way though. Ice is the easiest to tank with. It's the only tank power the can completely negate damage. It's pretty easy to tank when your getting hit but taking no damage.
Lastly there should be some balance with the pull. I don't feel fire needs a long distance pull but if flight can go into iconic powers and get a good long distance pull then the other movement powers should be able to as well. So the other movement modes should get a multi long distance pull or just give the fire power a good long distance pull

Fire is still the weakest tank by far.

Well...you know, you and the other guy were the ones who started talking about that fight. I just answer to the fight you were talking about.
And I know how frustrating Paradox Wave was. And how ungorgiven it was for Fire Tanks. What did i do instead of crying? keep playing improving my gameplay. Trying to find and using workarounds, like Phase Dodge. While others were switching to Ice.
I get that not everyone have the will to do this. To improve their gaming skills. Those are the ones that at the end, buy a respec token and choose Ice.

The potential of Fire is similar to the rest (except for Survival Mode). Fire may not be as easy to tank like others but it can be effective at the same time.

If you put me in that group, then ill have to tell you, that you are wrong again.
Like i already said many times, im always in favor of a strong updated to Fire.
Dominance should give more health (or the health buff being higher)
The resto buff should be higher, making the heals stronger.
Backdraft should be a spammable power.
There are power in the wrong position. Powers that do the same and ocupies a slot in the power tree without any purpose.
Eternal Flame should had been a regular power with a long cooldown, but they improved Burning Determination...so this is never going to happen.

Now that last part, about the game and the missing key...wtf dude? thats just nonsense.
BUT...You know...there are plenty of keys and ways to configure your keyboard if you are missing one. Like i said...workarounds