Post PvP Update Counter Damage

Then you probably just havent played back when immunities where not in the game.
While we are arguing about a subjective matter here, it is very logical to conclude that a combat mechanic where counters give you "godmode" for a short time vs a combat mechanic that could oneshot you on getting countered (back in the day a fully charged 1H BB on a blocking opponent) leads to much more intense fighting.

Yes, I did play back when immunities weren't in the game.

Before the longer blocks & block window were added, the game was very slow paced. Once the block window was added and it was possible to block break on reaction, it sped the game up greatly.

Yeah but let's face it, how many people landed fully charged BBs on people? I played countless duels and legends games where people would attempt to land both fully charge 1H and DW BBs on me and they would almost always miss, using that as a justification for more aggressive fighting doesn't make sense. I could just make a counter arguement and say that 4xtap hold into pulse beam mastery makes the game more aggressive for the same reason.

There's nothing subjective about it, you watch any games that the top players play now and they all play aggressive. Whether it's me, banished anaconda, wixxer you're watching, we all play the same game. You will get players who play defensive, but I've never met a great player who plays overly passive since the block window was introduced.

You are mistaking counter baiting with aggressive play, its not.

Just look at fight duration. If you want to use duels as a competetive measurement (which it is not) those used to be won on split second reactions. Block would last fractions of a second. BBs were instant and the vulnerability windows could be shortened a lot. It was about catching taps in minimal timing windows not the almost full second windows we have now, which seems like a stop motion video in comparison.

Using the little circle of 10 people that play against each other as example on your server is the hyperbole of subjective btw.

Yes it is, if it is done correctly. If you aren't playing aggressive, you aren't going to bait good players into blocking. Ever.

Fight duration? Legends now can be over much faster than it ever was possible before, especially when utilising someone like supergirl or catwoman. Catwoman can deal 3700 damage after a single counter (could exceed 5K without and 6k with the drone buff pre-nerf), which is more than half of every single legends health currently.

Fights now are won on split second reactions, fights were almost never decided on reactions pre block changes. It was literally impossible to catch blocks on reaction if they were tapped in the past, it was only possible if someone would hold there block for at least half a second if you had god like reactions. The only reactions present were catching BB windows, and let's face it catching a 3 second BB window on certain weapons didn't require skill.

It isn't, when those 10 players are probably far greater than anyone you have ever played against.

I could quite easily say that playing against 1000s of people that don't know what they're doing or aren't top in skill is also subjective, because it isn't representative of how the game should be played.

Let me stop you right there, "representative of how the game 'should' be played", proves your bias in this discussion. You've made it clear that baiting is the fool proof strategy, which I agree as my earth alt is getting by just fine at 87 PvP cr with no mods whatsoever. You believe counter mechanics are a measurement of skill, probably the only one in your eyes. Anything that may detract from the baiting strategy, one you've apparently mastered, is in someway taking away from what you see as an ideal combat structure. If counters were an OP FOTM power set, you'd be the one defending the absurd capacity of the power set.

Counter windows are far too generous to consider utilizing them as anything other than a crutch, being good at setting your opponents up to fail might garner more reverence if countering was based on pattern recognition and prediction alone, I'd tip my hat to any player so capable. Since they aren't and the devs gave everyone a handicap with these lengthy windows, I'll keep my kudos.

I remember you saying how powerful tap blocking was and that it should be punished. With such logic, we can observe that counters are extremely powerful and are due some punishment. It just sounds like anything that may hinder your personal style of play is bad for the game.

Counters should be a rarity not a common occurrence in combat.

Btw, congratulations on your victory at soe.

My statement still stands, not sure what breaking out of counters has to do with the risk vs reward aspect. The only thing I get from that statement is certain power sets can be a little more reckless as they can breakout of a hard counter.

There's still no justification for counter damage, it's not a reversal, reflection or a deflection. You're simply rendering your opponent vulnerable to attack which in and of itself, is plenty of a reward.

With the precision nerf, what's the point of being a precision power? Celestial already suffers in arenas. If the update goes through as planned, it will be completely useless, right?

It doesn't prove any bias in my discussion, let me choose slightly better wording so you can better understand. "how the game should be played if you wish to play it at max potential".

This just proves you're the one with bias. You're so against counters in there current state you keep stating things such as them being a "crutch" as fact without any sort of proof. You're arguing against someone who has mastered the current mechanics, claiming they're wrong without providing any sort of proof to back up your statements, whether it being videos, success in tournaments or anything of the like.

You also don't seem to have any knowledge of how the mechanics are utilised at top level play. Prediction is still there, you still need to know when your opponents are going to do things so that you can react to them. The windows aren't so large that you can simply do whatever you like without actually reading your opponent and then decide to suddenly react to things unless they blockbreak.

So you'd be a fan of having people tap block 10+ times a fight and being able to get away with it? I'm sorry but I would not advocate such a slow, turtling based gamestyle. This is the thing that people complain about regarding THIS meta, when it isn't actually the case. The reason it was so powerful was because it required no skill to use and blockbreaks were no where near as good in comparison to block, no things are more even.

Again, you attacking me shows your lack of knowledge about the subject matter.

Counters are much rarer against top players, again something you don't seem to realise.

Thank you.

There you go again, talking about how there's some mythical tier of players where combat is somehow vastly different than the rest. You're commendations further prove the game is skewed towards a particular play style.

The reason I'm so against counters in their current state is because I can go from a block to a HB uppercut combo and get block broken after I've landed my melee. You're allowed to take a DW ultra flurry until you care to block and the same goes for any extended weapon combos, you fail to defend yourself until after you know a combo has been committed so you don't need to block all of it to counter just those last couple hits.

You also don't need to catch your opponent in blocking stance to get the counter either because no matter what you do, if you hit block within the last few moments, you're open to a BB.

The devs have stated what they favor regarding counters, if I'm still blocking on their screen, I get countered regardless of whether or not I'm lunging said BB as opposed to me not getting countered because I'm no longer in a position to be countered. If that's not the definition of a handicap, idk what is.

At the very least, counter windows need to be tightened up and what exactly can be and when it can be countered needs to be revisited.

It is vastly different, anyone who has experienced it will confirm what I'm saying. You're from USPS right? Eminence is one of the top players from your server, just ask him how much different it is playing against me. The block breaks are on a completely different level and pretty much no one utilises rolls the way we do.

I have the proof to back up my claims, what do you have?

BS, unless you're playing with a stupid latency of around 1000 you're not going to have that happening. That isn't due to the windows, that is due to lag.

Nothing will fix lag.

The problem is that whenever you get countered, it is because you have done something wrong. You can drastically overstate the amount of delay you get but regardless, you got countered because you did something at the wrong time.

If you were to actually look at it that way instead of blaming these super easy mechanics which you can't seem to adjust to, you might actually become half decent.

The reason the window is 0.35 seconds is because it takes hold inputs 0.35 seconds to cause the lunge/BB to come out. If the windows are to be tightened, the inputs also need to be adjusted accordingly.

The issue with this is that it effects the rest of the game too, and I did discuss this with tunso at SOE Live.

You know, except getting a better internet connection, using a wired connection over wireless, ensuring other devices aren't connected to the internet eating up the bandwidth.

If lag and latency issues were so bad then there would be no way you'd be able to catch anyone on reaction in PvP.

Again, my ability to execute counters isn't relative to the discussion. There's this insistence that since I take issue with counters overall then I must somehow not be very good at PvP. Skill level is irrelevant in this discussion.

Assuming it is merely latency causing me so many frustrations, I'd have similar lag spikes with my other online games which I don't. It very well may be the ps3 isn't capable as these issues have perpetually gotten worse over time. To further wax this point, it's clear the PvP experience is not the same on all servers, if we assume the ps4 and pc can handle the data load, ps3 users are left in the cold. What then? Do we as ps3 users simply accept that we cannot have a fluid combat experience regarding PvP? Surely the devs are concerned about the quality of experiences players are having.

Getting countered doesn't equate to doing something wrong. If I do a fist slam combo and clip with anything I can still get blocked post clip and post cast, what did I do wrong to deserve being punished? Nothing, I was countered after I landed a melee combo plus a power clip which is silly as I've already caught you off guard. I do the DW ultra flurry, you can block the last spin and still register a counter even though the initial attack has already succeeded and I'm committed to an animation, have I done something wrong here? I don't think so.

No it is relevant, because you're trying to claim things about counter mechanics that simply aren't true. This is why a lot of your posts get removed, because they're non-constructive and not based in any semblance of fact yet you try to act like they are.

So far you have:

• Claimed all reading/prediction in PvP doesn't exist anymore - which is completely false
• Claimed windows are a crutch and incredibly easy to land - completely false and you've provided ZERO evidence otherwise
• Claimed counters should be rare - they are between people who know what they're doing, as they should be

And it all points towards one of three things:

• You possess a rather low level of skill in PvP
• You possess an inadequate amount of knowledge regarding PvP to be making the statements you're making
• Both

Regardless, you're continuing to claim things that aren't even close to the truth and still not proving anything you claim, stating that you "don't care". Well that's great and all, but if you truly want the mechanics to be changed you're going to have to prove it. Otherwise the developers are going to read your posts for what they are - fiction.

I mean I don't care, you keep doing what you're doing and nothing is getting changed. That's good in my books and many others.

I'm confident the devs are mature and open minded enough to consider all feedback regardless of the form it comes in, just a matter of time.

If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be badgering me with nonsensical, circular logic. This has devolved into a toddler debate over who's dad can beat up the other.

Every statement I have made still stands whether you choose to accept it that way or not. If you'd really like to discuss counter mechanics and how they may be improved, I'm all ears. This back and forth hasn't gotten us beyond square one.

It's actually possible to calculate the post update counter damage if we use shiny's formula:

https://forums.station.sony.com/dcu...eapons-in-dcuo-weapon-mastery-edition.210326/

Currently, if you're pretty geared out you can have about 1800 prec in pvp gear plus approx 1500 from the pvp weapon. So average non-crit block breaker damage now is 1680 plus the weapon dmg.

With the post update value of 1370 prec we're looking at 715 counter dmg plus weapon dmg. This is without mods or SP factored in, of course.

Even so, I admit this concerns me a bit considering counter damage is going way down while our health is going to at least be doubled.

I'm still cautiously optimistic. If counter damage goes down then post-counter punishment needs to go up, or relative mitigation needs to go down, which is supposedly what's happening. TBH I'd prefer higher counter damage and shorter post-counter punishment times to keep the action fast paced.

What needs to happen is breakout powers being fixed.
Tank powers have the most amount of breakouts and they can be fully utilized in DPS Roles in order to get away from counter punishment.

What do you mean by fixed?

I think he means adjusted, saying that there are too many ways to breakout of a counter.

I agree if the damage caused by counters is going to be that low they should be adjusted, however if they tripled counter damage I'd have no issue with them.

Edit: infact tripling won't even be enough post change, more like if they multiplied it by 5-6.

For the first paragraph. Your ability to execute counters is very relative to your experience with them. Failure to adjust or execute them is perhaps why you have quite a bias at it. Without being good at a system, you won't really see how much of an advantage or disadvantage it is. Firstly, countering requiring muscle memory and practice, secondly knowing how your latency and animations work is a key part when countering. Thirdly when playing with people from all over the world, they have different latency and display different animations that may be delayed, from there you adjust accordingly. These all require experience and practice and time spent playing different players.

Like I said again PRACTICE is required to be good at the counter system. cause if you don't practice at all, even good players get rusty.

I have played on 3 different servers from 2 different locations of the world. One in Asia, one in Europe and competed in both EUPC and USPC. I also play on the Asia server of SGPC where I am currently located. Based on my experiences, and knowledge of my crap and slow reactions, I know how to adjust slightly between all servers with some practice and warming up as timings etc change with latency. Also, having to switch between servers allows me to see the differences in how lag plays a part and using my experience with counters, helps me understand where counters are strong or best used in what situations according to the server and type of players I play in.

For your second paragraph, getting countered means you have done something wrong. If you do a fist slam combo clipped into a power, some powers actually cause you to get countered after the lunge because that power will register as a lunge. Please learn that this mechanic actually exists.

Finally overall, you have not shown to understand the system very well, and have assumed that everything your doing is correct, which is why you've not understood the system in which latency, delays and the counter system play a part.

Its not a mythical tier of players, they are players who compete regularly on FNL. Random new comers without experienced have so far been stomped pretty hard as shown. Also, Clutchmeister has played many different players on two different servers, played at soe live tournaments and played the devs, how many people have you played that you can say is considered good or top in the game? Not to mention beaten them all, and is the most consistent in winning in the entire game.

If there are great players who have not competed, they would still have played against top players before and be known. The queue system doesn't pop every second for you not to ever meet one other good player ever. And in most games, the best players are usually a small percentage, if not their not the best players.

Finally, until you prove your skill as a player, shown understanding for the system, brought proof of such understanding and data, its really just hot air, please put forth real data and proof of your skills and accomplishments, otherwise, its hard to be taken seriously at all.

*coughs awkwardly*

Sabigya and I actually regularly get queue's going against Impervious Woman and the only team in queue's who over the past few months who we have regularly fought and defeated us was Slob and Vengeance. Getting those guys down to about 300 points isn't anything to exactly scoff at. Either way those are some of the best fights I've had in ages against those two.

Killshot really said this in the best, shortest way possible that any intelligent human being can understand. But to elaborate on it a tiny bit:

The reason evidence is so important in this case is because Mepps and Spytle just hosted a tournament at SOE live wherein the combat system mechanics worked without a hitch. They regularly host FNL tournaments wherein that is the case also. They regularly play the game during FNL pre-shows wherein the results are the same. In order to actually give your claim any form of validity in their eyes as THEY haven't been experiencing these issues through numerous tournaments, you need to show them that there are issues with the current system utilizing some form of proof. Until that point, as Killshot said, it really is just a bunch of hot air from someone who has shown little to no knowledge of how the counter mechanics function in this game.

The only problem there is that it'd put certain powers at a disadvantage because they don't have nearly as many breakout skills. Realistically those breakout skills are the things that should be adjusted to keep a more level playing field.

EDIT: Speaking clearly in terms of counter damage there, nothing to do with weapon mastery as that should be its own separate issue.