DCUO population is bleeding off after EG7 announcement

Yours too...

Oh, you DO have a choice. The choice is to stop caring about 'min/max' and keeping up on the scoreboard, to not worry about having 12 different swap artis that you need to act like an old lady in church going into her purse every 2 seconds for god knows what, to choose to work with a A- Tier ally vs the new A+ hotness of the month. In the last 2 years I've spent $30 on the game, 2x subbing in Jan 2021 and 2022. With the change to stabilizers, I probably won't even do that this Jan as much of that value is gone. While $30 isn't 'nothing' it's a lot less than 28 cents a day too.

Unfortunately, those choices are not good for the game's income, but when pressed to make a choice, many will choose good for themselves vs good for a game who's owners have basically stated the game is an afterthought that just brings in some steady cash.

Would the announcement 'drive people away'? Doubtful. Will it make them think twice about how much they give a crap? Maybe.

And sorry....yes...you are definitely one of the more educated idiots around here. I retract my derogatory terminology.

Ok, so there are some additional sources of Nth metal. Do you think if we add them all up and add them to the total, it'll make a difference big enough to invalidate the point?

- The vault gave me 550 xp. I don't know if it's random or fixed, but assuming it's fixed, 4 months of seasonal vault per year, let's say 124 days in total, gives 68,200 xp.
- I didn't get any from the stab duo. Maybe you've just noticed the normal timer drops in there.
- Time capsules give maybe an average of 30 xp, if that. The daily stab duo gives 9 fragments which adds up to 219 stabilizers per year. That's 6,570 xp per year.
- Rare or one-time events like CR skip, anniversary, STU, and new episodes probably contribute negligible amounts. But let's tack on another 100,000 xp per year for good measure, which is probably generous.

That's 174,770 xp or 349,540 during double. Add it to our previous total of 9,778,000 to get 10,127,540 xp.

I don't think we know the exact crit values, but I think 25% chance and 50% magnitude is a good guess. So we can assume 25% of that total will be increased by 50%. That gives 10,127,540 * 0.25 * 1.5 + 10,127,540 * 0.75 = 11,393,482 xp.

So that brings us up from 5.8 to 6.8 rank 200 arts per year, and changes the time to achieve the outlined goal from 4.3 to 3.7 years.

I don't know what other factors you have in mind, but I doubt they'll change the result that much. We've already got all the major sources of Nth.
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So the point still stands. The timescale of an individual player's progression through a video game, even if it is an MMO, should not be anything close to the timescale of a human lifetime. If you told me I could achieve one of my major life goals in just 4 years, I'd say that's great. But for a game? People simply don't make 4 year commitments to games they've just started playing. I get that grinding is a normal part of MMOs, but who's going to want to start playing this game if you tell them they're going to need 2 or 3 or 4 years to catch up to everyone else?

It goes back to what I said in my previous comment. It feels like they are more concerned with constantly increasing the spending of their existing dedicated/addicted players than trying to build a game that more people want to play. And these systems back that up. When we look at the numbers, whether it's in terms of time or money, it just does not seem reasonable.

"The game is dying and it's specifically because of this one particular thing I'm angry about!"

People, who expected this old licensed game to get some sort of huge investment and a make-over, that would make it able to compete with new games and feel "fresh" again to players, who spent too long playing it, have no one but themselves to blame for having unrealistic expectations.

Also, a colorful graph, that has no actual numbers and which most likely doesn't account for DC IP licensing costs is hardly a good indication of how much of a "cash cow" this game actually is for DB.

What makes you think this kind of player is representative of DCUO playerbase? In the presentation, that outraged OP and is suggested as the reason for (allegedly) rapidly falling populations, it is stated that DCUO playerbase skews largely casual. Are you saying casual players have a desperate need to have 20+ 200 arts across many toons ASAP, so that they can compete on the score-board with those who have been playing since Beta? That is preposterous.

If a new player wants to quickly play 4 roles to a high standard - they don't understand what an MMORPG is. I'm not sure why this kind of player should be used as the benchmark for how quickly/cheaply maximum level of playing is supposed to be attainable. If they got their way somehow, then casual players (which are supposed to be the majority) would be able to achieve their - much more reasonable - goals in a very short amount of time and might very well be bored of the game fairly quickly.

I cant speak for others but for me its not about a major overhaul i want to know how in the world we went from recieving 2 large raids with a big episode every 3 months to 1 small/simple raid and barebones amount of content every 6 months. I would really like to know by the community manager how this happened.

if they arent going back to what they did 5 years ago and before then where in all seriousness are the investments that they used to do? They serve us around half the content they used to while taking twice as much time but still recieve the money they did before maybe even more money. What do think happens with the money? Surely not into dcuo,just enough investments to keep this lifesupport strategy up.

Could the „lack of ressources“ sentence used previously mean the devs dont get enough investments?

You criticize the system, you want changes... but every time you make calculations you do them wrong... (this time is no exception (you made a mistake, for example, with the amount of nth metal in a New Year's gift (last time it was 219,500 exp.. .), vault provides from 250 to 1250...for each individual character (you want 3 characters? Well, multiply the result by 3...you can even create 13 additional alts, spend 13 minutes a day on them.. .and multiply the result by 16...), each time you don’t take into account a lot of factors... what additional factors? Well, here’s one for you: you can buy nth detectors on a broker (how many hours a week did you say there? 15? Well, add 10 detectors a week...), do you want more? Well, here are two for you: during double exp... drop exp is also double (just don’t tell me that I will need to describe in detail how to make the most of it...)... and different factors have different influences, some small, some big...does the system need changes? YES...but criticism should be based on real numbers and not on numbers that are several times inflated...

The calculations aren't perfect, as you've pointed out, but "several times inflated" is bs. They are missing some factors, but are otherwise based on real numbers. I'm going to stop with the math for now though because I've been doing detailed calculations with incomplete information by trying to think of everything off the top of my head, and there's no point in doing that.

That said, I want to clarify that what I was going for with the yearly XP amount was not a calculation of the absolute maximum amount of artifact XP you can possibly collect in a year; it was how much artifact XP you can collect in a year while using the available resources within the constraints of some arbitrary but reasonable assumptions. For example, choosing not to spend any destiny tokens and only a fraction of loyalty points on Nth metal based on the consideration that a player may have other needs.

What I'm saying is that there's not just one correct answer to this calculation that we are looking for. It's dependent on the assumptions. It's a scenario that can be tweaked a hundred different ways and you'll get results that are higher or lower depending on how you tweak it. Just as it would be unreasonable to ignore the available resources when complaining about Nth metal gain, it would be a bit unrealistic to expect someone to be absolutely perfect in terms of Nth metal collection over the course of a year or longer, without skipping a beat. Should we subtract a month's worth of XP gain in case our hypothetical player wants to go on vacation in the summer?

Anyway, I'm not sure how much more ground we can make in this discussion. At least we can agree that the system could use work. I appreciate your input and your valid criticisms of my calculations.

Preach!

I think the reason they don't seem to want to accept or acknowledge the issues is because if they act like it's fine it rationalizes investing in a system that's not in it to ultimately satisfy you but rather pressure you into spending.

I've had the benefit of having been around since artifacts were introduced, that time and an input of money has largely set me up now, but I what I won't do is sit here and pretend like getting what I got was easy and effortless which is frankly what Rejchadar and Deity would have you largely believe.

It's a nonsense and I think new players not only deserve to know these systems are not going to be easy or quick unless you spend and probably spend a lot and unfortunately the investment in them is going to make a demonstrable difference in their in game performance probably more than any other attribute outside of actual gear.

This is also doesn't at all address the issue of power changes being highly restrictive solely as a result of artifacts unless of course you plan to spend even more time and money building items solely to use when or if you power change.

It's just not player friendly at all, it's a massive hinderance to a feature we once upon a time simply enjoyed as players, being able to change powers on a whim without having some monetized system slowing is down to the point where it's simply no longer appealing or on many levels even practically feasible.

Stop being pedantic, you keep acting like he's missing copious sums of Nth metal and then outright pretending if only he weren't the picture would be different.

You just need to accept the fact that it won't be, there isn't enough missing to make a difference. You are just outright strawmanning in an attempt to act like the position is wrong because of insignificant, unmeaningful details you assert are missing, when those details make no difference.

If they did make a difference then you'd do the math yourself and show it, but you're not because you know it doesn't change the overall picture, so you'd rather sit there and just allude to mystery missing elements and box from the shadows.

You're running quite possibly the worst debating strategy of all time given how horribly transparent it is to all of us actually in here engaging in constructive criticism of game features that are creating a negative play experience that desperately need improvement.

I don't think that and never said I did. I do, however, think it's a reasonable expectation.

Comments like this seem to ignore the entire several-years-long pre-artifact history of DCUO. Sure, if these systems had always existed since launch, there might be less distaste for them (although they probably would've stopped a lot of people from picking it up in the first place), but it's in comparing the BEFORE and AFTER of this game that it's impossible to ignore the massive difference in the cost of playing it at the highest level.

And that's a big part of my argument. The first sentence of your second paragraph can only be said today. It would not have made sense between 2011 - 2017 because the truth is that a new player could quickly play 4 roles to a high standard. Was DCUO just being overly generous for those seven years? Compared to other MMOs, maybe. I don't know. But it's one of the things that was great about this game and now it's no longer the case.

As for your last point, this is something I've thought about many times (the idea that if it's made easier for the multiple character min/max-er, then it'll be too easy for the casual player). And my response is, so what? This sort of defense of the system only makes sense if we are operating within a framework that assumes a priori that the system is good and fair. The idea of leveling arts/allies too fast only seems to make any sense because we've come to accept the arbitry cost that the devs have assigned to these things when they created them.

I don’t think it’s worth continuing further, it seems to me that we were able to name most of the sources of nth metal (the rest are either very unstable (like gifts due to changes in the EOG or small gifts due to unforeseen prolonged serverdown) or require financial costs (Booster Bundle, no one has them buys because of nth...but they are there, lol)...or are no longer available (nth cache on the broker...this method a month ago could allow extremely fast artifakt leveling...but requiring billions, lol)). Sorry if I was too aggressive.

A new challenger appears

Its Yamcha

Insert Opponent

Ultra Instinct Goku appears

Yamcha eats sensu bean CR skip to enter end tournament

Goku wrecks Yamcha, laughs in face

Yamcha comes to complain on forums

Gohan and Vegeta tells him it takes years of training...

Advert pops up saying you too can be Goku for $1000USD by going in the hyperbolic time chamber.

Yamcha uninstalls DCUO and loads Super Mario Wonder

I think you said that you don’t need any tips from me? Well, take it and calculate everything correctly for yourself...or have you overestimated yourself? If we take specifically the post that you quoted, then those missed factors will give you an additional 1-2 artifacts per year, depending on how much effort you want to put in. For a person who wants to raise 20 artifacts from scratch, this is still quite slow, for a veteran who already has over 20... this is enough so that he does not need to spend a single cent more on artifacts.

It reminds me of the rationale that Mepps gave back when they made episodes free and completely revamped membership. He said that they don't want players to feel like they are forced to spend money; they want players to want to spend money because they feel like they are getting value for it.

I really liked that sentiment, but the art and ally systems feel like the antithesis to that. Even if they costed only a fraction of what they do now, I still wouldn't feel like I'm getting good value for my money. People spend on these things because they feel like they have to. There is pressure from their peers, the community, their own desire to be powerful or competitive, etc.

And you're right that these systems don't do anything to improve the player experience. Between artifacts and allies, the devs have merely come up with a collection of a few dozen random in-game passive effects so that they could charge money for them, and made them just impactful enough that they feel mandatory.

I'm not asking you for tips I'm calling you out for running a strawman argument you know is a strawman while refusing to provide your own evidence of anything.

The fact you thought someone with more artifacts than you needed tips is a little weird lol

You were basically just trying to say miserable was wrong while providing no meaningful explanation as to why and in fact it in any case now seems like you're wildly attempting to backtrack, so ultimately I feel progress has been made whether you're entirely seeing the light, I am not sure.

Could they, though? I think you're looking at the "good old days" through nostalgia-tinted glasses. Or perhaps you were not playing for the fist few years, which is possible, considering when your forum account was made.

Feat unlocking was not an option before 2014 and SP mattered, because it was one of only 3 ways to improve a toon - so everyone had to grind all the feats (including PvP) on every toon, if they wanted to play at the highest level, unless they were using broken OP FOTM powersets, perhaps. Armories were introduced around the same time, so if you wanted to play 4 roles before then, without constantly respecing - you needed 4 toons. All PvE was loot-locked, so farming marks was not fast, easy, or cheap either. Top tier gear was harder to get, because you couldn't just buy the best armor in the game from a vendor, after running an easy "Elite" solo/duo/alert a bunch of times. You needed to grind the hardest raids, like PW and get lucky with the drops - not to mention, that loot was shared and you needed to "need/greed/pass" roll for it. And let's not forget gear mods, which required farming huge numbers of exo for each new piece.

Sure, some people with a lot of time and money could keep a small army of toons capable of running top-tier content, especially that "Elite", or "Elite Plus" were not a thing until much later, and there was a lot less content and feats to grind, but then - many do it now.

I've returned to the game on a new account last year and without spending any money other than subscription (and some QoL stuff, like inventory slots) I have 7 200 arts and 4 160s on my main and 3mill XP in the bank waiting for next double bonus. I also have 7 CR420+ alts, 4 of which regularly run EG Elite content, with 120-160 arts and 200-300 SP. Because most Elite is not difficult and you don't need 20+ 200 arts to be able to run it. You just need to be reasonably good at the game and make some friends, who will run with you. Sure - if you want to be winning pi**ing contests with random "sweaties", you might need everything maxed out and swap 7 arts, but if that's what the "new player" wants - well, tough. They can put in time, spend money, or reevaluate their priorities.

If the majority of customers are casual players, who may be happy running regular content with 3 arts, then it's in the best interest of the game to keep them occupied, active and progressing for as long as possible. Otherwise those players might not be motivated to play and farm resources, once they have their 3 200s, and they may just stand around in HoL, bickering in chats until they find something else to play.

The overly ambitious "sweaty" players who simply must have multiple maxed out toons are a minority. If they're unhappy and give up because they can't stand not being the best at everything - that's probably less of a loss for the company and the player-base.

Those new players are likely TOLD they need to have these things. I've even been on alts WITH 200s and still been told my selections are not good enough (and I'm talking things like trans, strat, solar, eog....not some weird niche build of non-standard Artis) so someone trying to run around with 120s could 100% be told he/she NEEDS 200s to be good. I've been asked why I'm running HOL bot or Krypto in hallways....insinuating that I'd need some AOE ally and a 2nd armory just to facilitate changing on the fly....to kill adds. To act like a lot of the people feeling the pressure to become less casual isn't caused by our own players is being naïve.

I've been playing for 15 months on EU server. Nobody told me any of those things. In fact, no group ever asked me about my SP, arts or allies when joining. Maybe it's a US thing. Or Elite Plus thing, which I only run with friends and league. Or maybe if you're performing well enough - nobody cares what arts, or allies you have.