Speeder EOG Universe

He is not blaming people for using them per se. He is blaming the people that claim that things can't change (such at the clamp) because the game needs to be a challenge or needs to be played as the missions were originally intended and then those same people use meta-builds that make that content trivial, thus negating their argument.

To follow Willy's theme

Clamp supporter.

1 character, Precision & Flight Elec Pet DPS... take or leave that set up how you want lol

Main as "pure" healer though -

Don't use EOG - had a week or so where I even had the armory but just not me

Don't tact swap.

Just some food for thought.

Man, the OP isn't having much luck with all these people he said he 'tracked down' and found similarities with.

Talk about confirmation bias gone wrong lol

Exactly

a "Meta" will always exist - even if does less dmg, it will exist if you remove the "better" one

actually money i stopped buying the "integrity" argument when the ones making said argument started telling others to solo bounties.... considering most indicate they are group missions......

I think they should move all the movement specific powers to the iconic tree to allow all modes to pick them. I think the best tank SC is Perfect Poise. Shield, breakout, makes you faster, and it's only 25% cost.

I know Panderus and Charon both have mentioned that is an option they were looking at. I also know Panderus wants to expand the iconics tree before they explore a new powerset. So yeah... fingers crossed.

Seems like a fair compromise...

A better solution than just taking a nerf hammer to it, that's for sure!

It might be worth going back to read some of my previous posts. In them I've already explained that I have EoG at 200. I'm not exactly sure where the "unprepared to do" part is coming from.

I also said that yes, there will always be Elitists and there will always be a "Meta", but the degree of difference between normal play vs Meta right now is a joke. And as one of my previous posts pointed out, not the funny kind.

Again, this isn't "Plan to 100% Eliminate Elitism and Meta". As I said before, that's not possible to do. It's simply to point out that if the 3 problems I've mentioned were fixed, it would narrow down that gap significantly. To the point where it isn't such a hindrance to the overall game.

Again though, a lot of this is already covered in my previous posts. Most if not all the points you brought up have been. As for the recurring argument of "There's always going to be a Meta", perhaps. I'm playing 2 other MMOs right now that don't have one so I'm very much confused about the suggestion that it's an impossibility. Balancing the game is part of the Job, not mine or anyone else's except the Devs. It's not impossible, it just isn't being done. So again, I'll post my support for any and all threads like this because maybe, just maybe, one day one of them will be read, tested, understood and fixed. Nothing wrong with hoping a game you like pulls a 180° and starts addressing the real issues and roadblocks.

You won't get absolute balance in game that offers true diversity because with that true diversity comes differences in how an end goal is achieved.

This results in something, always, always being better than something else no matter how negligible, so unless everything is absolutely truly identical in potential then, no those other games will have a meta also, if may even be that you aren't personally aware of it.

With that being said, I don't disagree with balance being required to EOG, I've been clear about that the whole time.

I do disagree with respect to movement modes because I think they're often conveniently looked at by bad players who think those moves are the primary cause they're losing on the scoreboard.

None of this stuff realistically comes down to whether or not content is or can be beaten, so it's about the scoreboard whether those people wish to admit it or not, I simply do not buy the "I'm being excluded exvuse" if you were truly a good player groups wouldn't care what you had because they'd know you, especially in the circles where any exclusionary type mentality exists in the first place.

For 14 years this game has nerfed things over and over and at times even excessively, lol Vernon wrist dispenser, then they tried to fix it only for it to still be rubbish.

Nerfing anything listed in this thread, won't fix anything because I don't think the motivation for it comes from a good place, even if it were warranted because the players aren't asking for it because they genuinely want balance, they're asking for it because they want players they see as opponents nerfed so they can win the scoreboard, then when players come after what they're using the cycle will start again.

But the clamp solved everything though right? That was a nerf to the entire game in which you are one of, if not the biggest supporter. I'm glad you think you know my intentions and think I see every super speeder EOG tac swapping person as competition I want to sabotage and not as someone that wants the overall game to be fair and not exploited. Your perspective makes me laugh the hardest honestly.

You're ok with EOG getting fixed cuz you say you dont use it, yet everytime I see you hanging out in HoL you have it on. Ok.

But, you use super speed so that cant be fixed and theres no problem there? Ok

I'm glad Obsidian chimed in here because he laid out the most proof on why Super speed is broken, anyone can run a loadout of only those powers and do heavy damage, plus the clipping adds to that.

You should probably just bow out here, because you are so deep in hypocrisy I dont think you know which way is up anymore.

Try harder lol, how laughably clueless, now I know you're a liar.

I barely wear the EOG it's not imprinted into a single one of my armories.

I barely tac swap it on even, I don't tank with it, I don't even typically run a SC on my tank build because I typically Brick tank, I might run an SC like dash attack or pheremone and run EOG on a jackhammer build, but I haven't jackhammer tanked since COUE really when I was tanking the eyeballs which killed Brick too frequently to be desirable, I didn't even jackhammer tank in SM round 30 last season, so I had little use for EOG.

When it comes to DPS, I just told you that I run a pet build, which uses source shard, quislet and grim, at times I might use a trans card or a MAM artifact, the only time EOG might be on my build is if using pets is an actual disadvantage such as a feat requiring boss orders and so forth.

You might want to get a pair of glasses Emoney lol

I don't get that point at all to be honest. And I never have. Balance doesn't require "everything to be exactly the same". 2 cars from 2 completely different companies who bring in parts from completely separate other companies can match each other in speed, handling and feel. This exists already, and has done so for decades.

When it comes to balancing, it's not nor ever has been about things being exactly the same. It's about the Math and the Variables. Don't get me wrong when I say that, I certainly wouldn't want to be the one to have to sit down and take a hard look at the numbers, but then I don't work for nor get paid by DI. It's a massive headache of a task, undoubtedly, but that is the job. Just to give you an example of what I'm talking about, have a look into "Warframe". I'm sitting here playing it as I type actually. 50+ different "characters", no 2 alike, and no Meta. If anything came close to becoming a Meta, it was adjusted. Whether its Frames or Weapons or Anything. The work is being done. The Math of each Frame is constantly being reevaluated. There is no Top Frame for all situations. This impossibility of there never being a Meta is on the screen in front of me. The Frames themselves have powers, albeit 4 powers each as opposed to 25+, but its similar Math and similar Logic, all about Damage Numbers like DCUO, Stacks of Elemental Damage like PIs and Buffs/Debuffs, Healing Potential and Damage Mitigation. You don't have to play the game ofc, just have a look online if you're unfamiliar. Also, drop the "you may not be aware" shtick. I'm very aware, have been since 2013 thanks. I'm trying to have a civil conversation with you about this and that's the second "Oh maybe you just don't know" you've slipped in. I let the first one slide, the second I can't ignore. If you find you cannot reply without talking to someone like that, decide not to reply instead and keep it to yourself.

To address the Movement Modes considering we agree about EoG, it's simply this. Theres 4 and 1 has what 3 don't, the end. It doesn't go beyond that, I've seen folks try their best to make it look so complicated but it just isn't. 1 has an advantage over the other 3, and has had so for too long now. If you're teaching 4 students and 1 is ahead of the class, the fix isn't to rush the others to where the 1 is. You tell the 1 to slow down and learn along with his/her classmates. Superspeed simply shouldn't have the advantage that it does. Period. If it wasn't "as big a deal as everyone makes it out to be" then what have you got to lose? It isn't a big deal right? Why would anyone try to keep something so badly despite it barely making a difference? Yeah, because it's bigger than most are admitting. How long has it been since you had a Flight character btw? I'm just curious considering the previous post had something I didn't address, this idea of flying over bosses and cheesing them doesn't exist. It just doesn't. "Grounded" is by far the most overused stun in the game. I genuinely, and I do mean genuinely, cannot recall the last boss who didn't Ground you if you try to fly. I mean you brought up the Fix that was implemented yourself in Nerons Underground. At least 7 Episodes of Bosses infinitely grounding players and you brought up the first one where it was accidentally left out, and fixed.

As to the point about players not having excuses etc, I don't support these changes just for long time players. We all got to enjoy a more-or-less balanced game at different points in time. I can honestly say that if I was starting day 1 right now, I'd be gone within a month. And to explain, I get that some folks just play the game like any MMO, but I always have been and likely always will be a MASSIVE DC Comics Fan. First one I read was Batman: Venom and I was hooked. Keep up with the stories weekly. I'm explaining this because I really need to emphasise how bad the game environment is for new players. This game should be Day 1 Me's dream, and I'd absolutely guarantee I wouldn't get past 1 month. Forced to play Superspeed because that's 99% of YouTube Videos recommendation. Looking at cool powers but to be useful in a group I could only use 2 of my powers abilities, 2 superspeed abilities, Robot and Neo. Everyone's got top gear and 200 arts calling out for fellow 200 arts players yet the queues for levelling raids are horrendous. And just to cheer myself up I go to the Broker to make my character look a certain way but no, everything is millions, blocked by the players for fake currency, as if that would be a reasonable thing irl. Blame the Devs all yous want for lack of Tutorials etc, but its the Playerbase who have collectively, including you and me, made the game look hostile and toxic and unwelcoming.

"Play your Own way" was the dream of the game, the goal to aim for. I took a step back and looked at LFG full of "Need DPS PM CR SP Arts and Kitchen Sink". If that's no longer the goal then what is? Because throwing out Episode after Episode and shiny new Aura/Material after Aura/Material to disrract has fixed nothing so far. So what the hell is the goal of the game now if everyone is happy that everything's broken?

Yet you keep saying barely. I dont need glasses, I guess I just need to catch you on those days you say you dont use it lol.

For the avoidance of doubt, I said you 'may not be aware of other games metas' it was a potential not a foregone conclusion, so no need to be offended by it.

I won't proclaim to know anything about warframe and I don't disagree with your idealistic pusuit for damage parity if we were to break it down into something like all 100s hit the same and so forth.

I agree that in an ideal world that might be the outcome, this game has literally never been there though, ever.

There has always been a dominant meta in this game and despite that there are still players that love this game, I do not think there existence of a meta is the primary driving force behind why a player would pack it in, I could go through a litany of other factors more likely to be driving a new player away.

I question also both the practicality of the pursuit and the method in which it's achieved, people often cry for nerfs because they're frequently portrayed as the best solution even when they're not.

Look at what they did with the venom wrist dispenser and yet here we are again crowing over the EOG, nerfs need to be careful and well thought out.

As for flight, no I disagree entirely, grounding is routinely and commonly missed from content, sometimes it gets implemented later, other times it never does.

ZOOE, MOME, NUE, ROEE, flying over lasers in machine, flying in SM at times, flying in both justice league dark raids, even SGE at times when grounding fails.

Flight players take just as much advantage of their abilities as speed.

What we are talking about here though are three moves, whirliing dervish, vortex trap and phase dodge.

The reason I'm telling you the tears are exaggerated about these particular moves is because they can frequently be supplemented by other powers with only a small damage loss, players errantly believe theyre relied upon by players when they're not.

If you did anything to them, they'd be supplemented by something else overnight and the meta would shift, but it will continue, when having this conversation we need to keep that reality in mind.

Seeking a utopia of balance world require a far greater systemic rework of every power in the game, focusing on a few things has never worked in the past, will never in the future so we have to be realistic about it.

The thing that needs to be remembered about allies and artifacts is that power creep is real, no one should be under any delusion that power creep isn't how these things are being sold and EOG was and remains one of the biggest culprits, it should come as no surprise there is a reluctance to nerf it, given prior precedents and issues with touching artifacts post release, like I said the VWD was a trainwreck.

I have also said too earlier in this thread, when bumblingb mentioned it that everything could be moved to an iconic tree, which is actually a good solution, at least from an access perspective, even if it doesnt help those players who just simply won't use what's available to them when the scenario might dictate it.

I actually dont disagree with the premise of some of these issues, but I do disagree, to an extent, with respect to the severity people attempt to frequently place on them while alleging they're somehow being gated from general content as a result.

The only content they'd even remotely be gated from would be elite and respectfully as well, typically an elite player isn't going to shy away from embracing the meta.

As for flight players, I have existing end game flight players that do not struggle in content, in fact I have a prec sorc player that continually surprises me in terms of DPS and it uses zero movement abilities, obviously.

When I say barely, I might use it once every few weeks at most, at its least maybe once every few months.

I'm being very serious when I say that artifact barely makes its way out of my inventory, so much so it's probably to my own detriment.

I'm in fact far more likely you be swapping on my philosopher stone or scepter

Really hope the OP knows that Gemini is an option. There are people who wanna do the most so they get through content quicker. There are also people who dont use it and do as they please.

The reason you see so many dps at end game with Gemini, Prec, Elec/gadgets/rage, speed and dual weild/brawling is because its end game. Where your stats matter and where you actually get hurt by things hitting you. Kill things fast = less time in danger.

There is also the side that is community based. "Oh you do bad damage? Kick" "Oh you dont have gemini heal? kick". Its not just to fit into the meta, its to stop people being cry babies in your group because they dont have the best of the best on their team to carry them through content. Team effort. All you need in the game. Good team is all you need, Damage shouldnt be so worshipped as it is. People should rely on knowing mechanics and knowing how to survive and play the game rather than spam prec

Warframe has plenty of Metas…they do have varied content structure and mission types - so there is more variability, but it’s still a Meta - Eidolon farming groups, old defense missions (Frost warframe, Mag loot pull build), solo/survival missions (Loki, Ash invisibility duration builds)…it’s the same with the weapons…what they do do () here is adjust/tweak/“balance” very frequently. The same calls for “specifics” are in the recruiting tab in Warframe as similar to what you find in LFG.

DCUO currently has a very streamlined archetype for instance structure - which allows for one type of build to generally excel over others. I feel like they have added more varied phases to boss encounters more recently, which is a step in the right direction.

We don’t need a scoreboard in a Co-op game…just throwing that out there. If we’re going to continue on in a casual direction, make it fun. Give away some of the new emotes for “most rallies” or for new feats when you hit 1000 rallies.

Interesting second viewpoint on Warframe.

In respect to the scoreboard I know of other games that do not have one.

Despite the fact I find the scoreboard a useful tool at times, I also feel it brings with it a somewhat unfortunate level of toxicity that doesnt necessarily promote team work.

Ugh, the scoreboard.

Way back in 2011 or 2012 I suggested just posting the stats for the player, not for everyone in the group, that way it could be a useful tool for toon growth, and remove the scoreboard chasing.