Just a few things to get off my chest regarding Stat Clamp and The state of the game for new players

No, wasn't saying you were specifically lazy.

And you've confirmed what I've said all along, it isn't the clamp, it's the reward.

If you can name me one way that a duo will queue quicker than a solo(which is instant), I'm all ears. If you can mention how there is less than the 0% chance that I have of running with a squatter or walk out, than I do in my solo, I'd like to hear it. If you can name one duo that's quicker than Manheims, Funhouse, Star labs, the Bizarro iconic, Parallax, BOP or the WV solo (which pays 2 extra marks for you marks hungry guys), I'll give it a run. I'd add a few more that are questionable, like Regal hotel, but there's like a min worth of cutscenes and scripted attack/pause on the last boss...so I won't count it. The only duo that comes to mind is the Police station/Nightclub duo....and that's debatable if your partner insists on shadowing you vs doing the opposite task (killing or carrying). I'd say bottle duos, but you run the chance of babysitting the turrets...or catch a partner who is going for bomb/civillians/spawner counts vs working on the goal, which will upset that average time.

I run solos for all those above reasons, and even if I am choosy, I will guarantee, I'll be done with all 3 in <15 min every time. I can name a few duos where even if you end up with a decent partner AND don't have a long queue wait time, it might take longer than that queue to finish. I'm honestly not sure why anyone runs Omni duos...seems pointless unless YOU need feats from a lot of duos.

And I already said I've gotten more selfish as a result. What 'insight' did you garner that was not already in that obvious statement? These are omni runs....I'm not here to help random players. If I saw someone in LFG shouting for an assist on something and was bored I might help...but that's not an omni run....it's LFG and a feat group. However, more often now, if I'm bored, I sign out....so less of that even too. Omni runs are about getting paid....and when I'm in omnis, I'm a mercenary....just like they wanted. It's by design.....'Work within the confines of the system'....right? Welp, I am, and there's no rule saying I have to enter or stay in and help on crap runs.

More reward for MORE time won't really coax me into joining a group I wouldn't join already. I go for the quick reward....whether it's big or small. If I can get DD raid in Omni every week, even though it's lower marks, I'm perfectly happy every time. I'm not accepting Omni MoM (except on the 1 toon that needs the OP piece) DWF, CT, or BBS, even if they make the reward 20 or 30 SM even. Not worth the time and annoyance.

Holy **** bro, talk about salty much. I mean are you actually here to play the game or just clock in and out as quickly as possible? I mean damn. It's like you're trying to make this the most efficient conveyor belt of characters humanely possible., You need to relax your game play.

All of that just to avoid a duo partner and a bit of extra time it might take to interact and help another human being on a video game.

****in hell lol.

In omni....yes, clock in...clock out. What did I not make clear about that? EEG used to be a bit of fun distraction either buffaloing through things or helping out with some quick feats for those that needed them. It is now no longer 'fun' really, at least not for those same reasons. Slower, sure. Potentially annoying? You bet. It used to be the 'get in, get out' policy applied to helping someone or maybe giving myself some personal challenge (you know...like you do with an OW bounty still)...at least at the higher EEG... Now it's 'get in, get out' but the goal is "I gets paid. YO!", same as spammers....same as 'skip adds' runners.... same as 'bro, we don't need a troll/heal/tank, so go DPS' players. Not sure why my goal of efficiency bothers you and those others don't, at least not to the point you mention it. My overall treatment of the content has not really changed...just the motivations have. I did not change those....the game did.

I can't believe we had this discussion for 200+ pages and you are just now comprehending what I (and others) have said.

Not sure what the cussin is about....but yeah, I try to do things 'humanely'....just like they do at the meat packing plant. If you don't want to know how the sausage is made...don't ask. It ain't pretty.

No, I don't think the game changed your motivations at all, I think you've always been about efficiency and loot.

That's why you pine after the unclamped nature of the game, whether you readily admit it or not.

The extent if your help is limit by the degree to which another person's experience inconveniences your own ambitions, which clearly involve getting in and out as quickly as possible, probably because you've got more stuff to run, more characters to run.

The game for you is more about the reward than the game itself, the game is merely a means to the loot almost as if you're playing the game reluctantly.

The clamp was too balance everyone's experience between the original experience and trivialization, because at the end of the day we're here to enjoy the game itself as much as we enjoy the reward.

We're also here to play the game with other people, not go to every length we can to avoid them because they are inconvenient to us.

I also haven't take 200+ pages to understand you, I've understood you the entire time, I just fundamentally disagree with the way your looking at the game and the clamp and I don't think you're prepared at all deep down to accept the reasons why the clamp was introduced, you understand why it was introduced, but you don't accept it and that is the reason why you go to lengths to find ways to "manipulate it" rather than just "play it".

No, I really wasn't saying that. That is just the direct result of the clamp, needing to up the rewards in order to bribe entice people again. Sigh.

Curious question.

You have 762SP, that means someone is helping you with feats, sounds like you have a core group of 8 very competent players, probably more.

So question;

If that group of players, the group, clearly getting elite feats runs any EEG content, what is the experience like?

Fun fact, he begrudges people getting feats he himself cannot get. See his comments in e plus thread, similarly he refuses to help people with stuff and won't even set foot in omnibus, see stat clamp thread.

So, i'm guessing that group of competent players is purely hypothetical at this point, seeing as he can't get e plus done and he won't run omni.

No, I do not, actually. It's tough to scrounge up 8 competent players on villain side. Heroes like to be biased too and not want to include us a lot of the time. I haven't really chased tough feats in a while, though. This still isn't about me either, other than population issues. Why you even asked, knowing that, is beyond me.

I could if I joined a hero group for them. All you've written here is all for the most part straight up nonsense though. Me feeling like it was uneccessary to add points in Elite+ has nothing to do with me "not being able to get them". I honestly have never even stepped foot or even attempted to form an elite+ group. It's too toxic for my liking. Also been too busy with my 3 month old to sit in an instance for 8 hours while people yell at each other (I've heard nightmare stories). Don't try to put me on a pedestal I've never claimed or even tried to be on.

You didn't actually answer the question lol

If you went in to EEG with that same group of people you did an EG elite feat with and tried to get an EEG feat, describe your experience?

Ah....but most times pre clamp, there were 'no rewards' as you've said many times before, right? ....so either A) I wasn't running that stuff, so nothing has really changed or B) I was running for other reasons. As I have most all of the feats, and have had them for way before the clamp went in, it wasn't to feat hunt for myself, so it MIGHT have been to help someone else...no?

The clamp changed that, and not just for me. Example: NO-ONE would have spammed USR pre clamp, because there were loot locks, you'd go one time maybe, or not at all OR to help someone get a feat you might repeat, unpaid. NOW, even the mention of closing the side tunnels in USR to help out someone with the feat checklist, adding 5 or 6 min delay to the fastest path to finishing is met with chiding from your running mates (barring a made group where that is the stated purpose). And I don't make those groups, but landed in a few during 2x week on random queue. Very efficient, but very non-helpful.

It's not the game I'm playing reluctantly...it's old tired content...made old, tired AND SLOW now. It's still old and tired with a marks vs time trade off. I'm not a huge fan of that trade off, so I participate reluctantly, I'd guess less so than before. Unfortunately, at this moment in time we have an old tired event and an episode which is very long in the tooth....so overall, yeah I'm playing less I'd say....but some of that will cycle out with the event and a new episode...the old tired EEG will still be the same.

So, go ahead, add more feats to draw people into the old content. They will spam the hell out of it like they did when they added the new pets and Zeus Lightning back, or made re-running a requirement for unlocking the pet vendor for missing headlines. Then when it slows back down in a few weeks or months....what then? Add more? At what point do you face the fact that the vets (as much as they profess) don't want to run old tired content they ran 100x 10 years ago? They will run for some loot, till they have their fill....fighting battles for pay...there's a name for that....Mercenary. It's this reason I disagree with your (and DBG's) assessment of 'why' it was added. IF adding the clamp was truly about the new user experience and making it 'fun' by adding challenge NO loot would have had to been added. The excitement and enjoyment of the runs themselves would BE the reward. The fact that loot HAS to be there shows no one is enjoying the clamp really....they are tolerating it. I am just honest about it and you don't like hearing it out loud when deep down you know it's true. Or do you build a lot of league/friend runs to run that exciting Necro raid you ran 8 years ago? Wooo....goose bumps finally beating that one....again. High fives all around I'd guess.

BTW it's not 'great lengths'....NOT doing something takes very little effort...I just don't run it or choose what I run more selective then you do. But I've never run EEG non selective. When I went in it prior to the clamp...there was a purpose, either selfish or altruistic....That's true today still, just the scale has slid a lot more to the selfish side. Sorry....that's what making your customers into mercenaries does in the end. Mercs are generally a selfish bunch. Also, how is NOT running something 'manipulating' it? That's putting a dubious connotation to just not wanting to run things. I'm not casting shade on how you run things, not sure why you feel the need to cast it my way? If they don't like the way some people run in the system they created, I guess they need to change the system....again.

Usually everyone already knows how to get the feat, so smoother than with randoms, obviously. However, the last time I attempted to help someone get a feat like one you are mentioning, the other players helping already had it so they botched it either on purpose or because they just didn't care much. If you are trying to say that running this end game content is the same or whatever to helping people stumble through old crap, you are wrong. People will do the newer stuff way more than they would do the old crap.

I don't honestly think you were running pre clamp either, or if you were predominantly only when you had something to gain or league was dragging you in, I don't think you'd have blind queued much at all or if you did it was thinks like Paradox where the payoff was worth it.

The clamp didn't make you a mercenary, you've always been one.

You're also still entirely missing the point because you still think it's only about your 'fun', everything you've written in your post is about you about your experience, the impact on your experience.

You've not stopped for a single moment to think, actually maybe the fact the new player can actually get a hit in now, actually makes 'playing the content' more fun for them, rather than me forcing them to have fun vicariously through me playing for them.

That's why you're missing the point, you're making everything about you, so you're refusing to acknowledge the clamp was about experience balancing.

No, my point was an admission on your part that the players are the issue not the clamp.

Content is going to be more difficult when players are new, it gets better with time, but this loop continues if you have a growing population.

If people spent more time actually helping the game would be less of a struggle for everyone, but people are so focused on time efficiency they've lost sight of the fact this is a team based game we should be playing together.

If you want things like feats in EEG then start allocating a reasonable amount of time to it, stop expecting "wham bam, thanks", it's not how it works and even if it was 18 months ago, that no longer matters.

This doesn't really apply to you specifically either, just anyone in the position of needing feats.

Also as a side note ask yourself this, are people more likely to quit because of the clamp or because your friends or those people as you described are clearly ********.

Oh, goodie....we've circled back to calling people liars. Fun!

I completely agree a CLAMP would be about balancing the experience for the new players. However, getting paid is for the vets mainly. Otherwise....as I said already, we'd have gotten the clamp and omni with no additional (or at least limited) pay. But then they know hardly anyone would run it.

And yes....'getting a hit in now' sounds like that new player experience is very rewarding. I'm sure if they die, and you finish up as battle role (don't say you wouldn't....) it's also more rewarding....for someone.

The clamp made most who didn't quit because of it bitter as all hell and way more selective with their time...

Once again, no matter how you twist it, the clamp still is in the very least partially to blame for a lot of the current hardships on my server. The population is not growing, it's declining. There needs to be ways to reverse that aspect, not encourage it. You claim to care so much about the state of the game, yet don't want to see that certain things are just not good if they aren't working.

It's not like I was ever trying to change your opinion, either. Just trying to get others to see things from the perspective of someone on a lower populated server that is struggling and shouldn't be dismissed. We are still paying customers all the same.

I wish I could change players minds and perspective about feat chasing on my server, but I'm no politician or public speaker. It's just sad to watch it decline like it is. Nothing I can do about it except just sit back and watch at this point, and keep up hope that things will change for the better!

Lol, no you offered a choice, so I selected (A) that you didnt run content unclamped, we both know it's true, because it's true of every veteran in this game.

Once you'd extracted everything from that piece of content you abandoned it, it's just an inconvenient truth when pretending like the pre clamp was something it wasn't.

Also in my opinion, I'm sure you'll disagree, but you've turned this game into too much of a job, you've respetfully lost sight of the fact it's a game that has to broadly please everyone.

You're right I don't accept the clamp is the cause of xbox population issues, because those very same population issues existed pre clamp.

Jokes were constantly made even about how when the devs joined xbox server for streams they'd get all 4 xbox players to turn up. It wasnt caused by the clamp.

There's two reasons people are bitter about the clamp. They're angry things take longer and they want better reward for their time and they're angry feats require more effort, although the latter typically comes from less skilled players because the actually skilled players don't typically have issue with getting clamped feats outside of any possibly broken outliers and they're certainly far less likely to complain about them until they've exhausted all reasonable attempts to obtain them.

Instead of focusing on demanding the removal of the clamp, which is just overall negativity, capable of pushing equally as many people away as you allege the clamp is, change the narrative to a positive one and start asking for better rewards.

I'll accept that as true....but I did run unclamped, even when it offered me no personal gains, although I also ran it FOR personal gains as well, as you pointed out...Paradox paid off pretty well for small investment. However, knocking out feats like '4 corners', or 'right tool for the job' or 'behind closed doors', or 'any of the ToTD count feats didn't pay well....and yeah, I'd help out with those on occasion, but in those cases, getting those things done was still pretty efficient.....even if for free.

And yeah, the game is a job. I think it became that back when TCs came into the picture...or maybe when high count bounty feats came in. And yeah....on a job, I do like to get paid....otherwise it's 'charity'....and I do my charity work at the church (and not Cyclonics wacko clamp church).

How often did you run Avarice Impurity when unclamped? Zamaron Conversion chamber, Act of Defiance? Do you even remember what they are?

Do you see why I mentioned you were always a mercenary, it's because even above pre clamp, you're looking for and selectively running the content providing the most personal gain

As for the game becoming a job, that's simply a case of you letting the game shift your mentality, it's easy to do and we're all guilty of it at times, but we have you remember it's not.