Microtransactions for random rewards

I posted a version of this thread yesterday, but it was deleted. I PM'd Mepps to ask which forum rules or terms of service I had broken, and received a short reply from which I infer that he wasn't happy with the references to another game.

There is a rising backlash amongst gamers across different gaming platforms against microtransactions with an indeterminate reward.

One very popular gaming franchise, which, like DC, is based upon a license where children make up a very significant proportion of the fanbase demographic, has this week made headlines in mainstream news circles at the backlash against the oppressive use of microtransactions to unlock content.

This is not a thread about whether or not DCUO's own time capsules contain necessary or desirable rewards. That can, and has been, argued both ways on these forums.

What is indisputable is that players are paying money for a random reward. Unlike more recognised forms of gambling, this type of microtransaction embedded within a gaming platform is completely unregulated, provides no odds transparency to gamers, and does nothing to deter children, the vulnerable and problem gamblers from taking part, or taking part to excessive levels. In the UK, such a game would not receive a license. They are the digital equivalent of an illegal dice game or a prison numbers racket.

It would be fantastic to see Daybreak Games taking a lead in ending this practice.

Players are clearly prepared to pay a premium price for a good game or gaming product.

Players are also clearly prepared to spend extra money on microtransactions.

But the clock is ticking on microtransactions where players do not know what they will receive for their money. Consumer anger is rising against unethical payment models embedded within games.

Within the not-too-distant future, it is likely that countries will start to outlaw unethical and unfair gambling systems hidden within console and PC games - it would certainly be among my priorities if I were a lawmaker - and it would be brilliant to see Daybreak responding proactively to the rising voice of gaming consumers who have had enough of it and provide transparency and fairness in this business area.

If players really want these types of things to end, they should stop paying in to it. That is the only way to end it.

And honestly, I think that there are far more important things for lawmakers to focus their attention on instead of video games.

I like you man but you're crazy. The only reason we still have a game is most likely time capsules and all that money they raked in from stats revamp aka make the bad powers good and the good powers bad. This game will stay focused on micro transactions until they shut down the server.

If DBG or any other company who has a license cannot make their gaming profitable without these boxes, then that's the decision of the market. Nobody wants to see DCUO do anything other than prosper and thrive and I am happy for DBG to offer a premium product at a premium price and that includes microtransactions.

But they should not be in a position where their business lives or dies on compulsive customer spending. People should know what they are getting when they commit to spending money. Consumers on gambling platforms are entitled to some basic protections that aren't being provided on DCUO or any other games I could mention.

Microtransactions I can handle, I've spent money on microtransactions in the past and I will do in the future.

It's the specific relationship between microtransactions and unregulated gambling that simply has to be eliminated from these games.

If we have western governments - who we are voting for - who are saying to gambling companies who run casinos, sportsbooks and lottery games that they have to inform customers of the odds, only allow adults to participate, and put protective measures in place to try to prevent compulsive gambling, we can't let gaming companies do whatever they want completely unchecked. It's unethical.

easier

easier said than done as a lot of players don't pay for it but that's why they are whale fishing because for every 10 people that don't there is one that will pay enough to cover all the rest not buying them (I.E Whales ) as long as those whales exist it won't go away. blame companies like rockstar for pushing this to the forefront as they make over 500 million on just microtransactions

I'm not wanting to get too deeply into other games, because then the thread will disappear, but if you play GTA V and buy a Shark Card on GTA when you know you're getting the million dollars you need to buy a new car or a tank. That's not a gamble.

Yup, the regulations hasn't caught on. If industry was good at policing themselves then that'd be ideal and folks wouldn't need legal bodies to step in. There's a legal age to gambling for a reason. In the U.S it's mostly 21, with a couple States for 18. This game is rated TEEN. The mantra seems to be ... well other publishers are doing it so why don't we.

Great post and well said sir

Honestly thou any system that's setup to leave a customer spending money disappointed is............

There is zero to say that's not extremely negative and harsh so fill in with your imagination.
Tim capsules would be great if the vendor had every item and pricing was fair.
$5 auras
$10 materials
Armor sets uh no clue what a armor styles worth. None the less as long as its fair it would be great

The real issue isn't whether or not players like these gambling systems. They will continue to be a major revenue source and in some games, THE primary revenue source. The ONLY thing that will put an end to it is governmental interference.

I personally am not a fan of the various gambling systems in a lot of MMOs, but I also don't think they violate any laws. And here's why.

As a minor, you can't really enter into any contractual agreement without a parent's consent. If you buy a DCUO Legendary membership, you have to pay electronically. That requires the use of a credit card. Well guess what ... that's got an 18+ age minimum. Using your parent's CC is only legal if you have their consent. Legally, any purchase you make is considered your parent's purchase, not yours. So, you haven't gambled, they have. The counter-argument would be that you can purchase some things through Steam. And that wouldn't require a CC. You can just buy Steam gift cards with cash. So, my solution would be to make Time Capsule keys purchasable ONLY with a CC. You do that, and the purchase is in and of itself proof that the "gambler" is an adult.

But, let's be honest about something. What percentage of Time Capsule key purchases are coming from minors? I have no actual numbers, but I'd be shocked if it was more than 1%.

Gambling can become a form of addiction. That's why the casinos have to advertize for addiction hotlines on the game floor. It's not hard to see the similar situation here.

I would add for people to remember the children as they use voice and chat in game. It's a funny thing, we get thread after thread about the children being exposed to gambling, but where are the threads worried about the children exposed to profanity? What about the children exposed to cyber bullying because the children don't play well enough? What about all the comments about the game being too easy? A kiddie game. How ironic. Don't we care about the children?

It's funny how things get warped to fit a person's agenda. If you really cared about the children, wouldn't you be mentioning more than just the time capsules you don't like?

1) Profanity filters exist in this game, and the kids parents could always have them not listen/use voice chat if it bothers them.
2) cyber bullying is just a facet of the internet in general. I don't think anyone knows a solution to this other then don't use the internet or any form of digital communication.
3) That is a skill request not a age complaint. Many children on this game can out play the 'adults' and would like more difficult content to test themselves as well.

and finally none of that really has to do with the topic at hand of gambling.

I like this one the best. You have confidence the parents can control this, but no confidence they can control purchases. Whose credit card are these kids using? Either you believe the parents have control or no control; there's no cherry picking. Personally, I believe the parents control the whole thing; and who are you to step in and tell them how to parent their kids?

But please continue to contort yourself into a pretzel as you desperately try to promote your anti-time cap agenda.

If you look at the names next to the posts. The credit card comments were not mine so you have no idea what my views are on this. I also never said anything in particular against the idea of TC in this thread. If you just want to start an argument feel free to try with someone else because I'm done with the conversation after this.

Since your were curious currently there are other methods than credit cards to buy stabilizers. So no, parents would not be able to control this. Would limiting transactions to only credit cards fix this....maybe. However it would also hinder many adults who are unable or unwilling for security reasons to attach a credit card to this game from purchasing them if they would like to. Also, TBH my concern here has nothing to do with the children involved in particular as I do believe parents usually have the ability to control this situation in regards to in game purchases if it is becoming a problem.

As far as the Time Capsules needing to go away because of the gambling aspect. No, I don't think it needs to go that far. I have experience with gambling addiction and the similarities of the risk/reward involved to this system did set me on edge right away though. I'm not sure how they could change the system to limit that, but it should be kept in mind how close the concepts run together when many people keep responding to those who don't like the TC's by saying 'if you don't like them don't buy them', it is not always as simple as that.

Jack Emmert, daybreaks new ceo, learned how to slowly monetize mmo games more and more, when an Asian company - bought out a company he worked for, and introduced this business model to its employees.

He has said so in interviews, and has implemented the similar systems he has introduced when he came on board to DCUO as in other games he has worked for in order to monetize them further than standard membership and smaller microtransaction profits, like cosmetic market place items we have had in the past, and replay badges.

I understand any company wants to be successful, but to me, the money people are paying for these systems to advance their characters- is nothing but a gamble and a risk, because the RNG percentages are so horrible.

Whats being implemented, in my opinion, is the pay to win system that is very popular in asia but frowned upon here in the western gaming world that he has implemented in other games. It is done slowly at first because western gamers do not like the concept, and first started tying our SPs and feats to time capsules. To be on the top, one then needs those items to be competitive. He has implemented systems like this in COH, Champions online, Star Trek online, and Neverwinter - albeit with different names- save "artifacts", heh.

This will last as long as it is profitable, as learned in the other games he was on board with, by those other game's player base. Dcuo has been very profitable with our memberships, marketplace purchases, replay badges, ect., but the time capsules, quark vendor, and the stats dont matter much at all and imbalanced revamp doesnt seem to be sitting well with myself, and many other of the game's customers that I have talked to. What concerns me the most, is that Ive seen first hand what happens after the storm passes in those games, and the state they are left in when their most loyal of a fan base, had had enough and moved on.

I tallied today, and there are already 10+ skill points from time capsules alone, that I will never have now. They keep adding up. On my end, they will keep adding up too, because I wont spend a dime on additional keys or cash grab gimmicks to sell my stats back to me, that I feel I already earned and paid for in game- and that they took with the game wide clamping to stats that happened with the imbalanced revamp. Sad thing is, if even the RNG were changed for the better, I would support them financially on a cosmetic level as a fan, but still would not want feats and SPs tied to them.

Content and episodes are no where near what they used to be in quality or in quantity. Content is rehashed (yes, this new episode too- is ALL Rehashed levels). We have nothing new and original built for us as customers, save for the syndicate skins, a few new base items, and 2 new gear styles. Creativity, for me, is just not there in any way, but they dont miss a beat on the newest time capsule, did they?

That prioritization doesnt sit well with me. As a player or a customer. Im a comic book fan. I play this game for my character's progression and to see new comic based content AND environments to play through. Not rehashed content from other Dlcs and past episodes over and over and over and over like we have.

I posted this in another thread to show how the content is rehashed:
We did not get a single new level. What we got WAS exactly rehashed content with a few new decorations and skinned costumed enemies.

Open World: Rehashed Gotham with over casted sunlight.

Duo- The Visitor: Was Rehashed levels of Smallville, The Brothers in Arms alert, and Gotham.

Raid- Panopticon: Rehashed background versions of the Watchtower and Hall of Doom.

Raid- The Escape: The same.

Things that were new? Not many.

Um, we got base items, and Injustice league characters, which, were rehashes from existing characters already in game save for a few mechanics. The owl man and Johnny Quick gear sets, I liked those. A FEW base items were the only original thing Ive seen from this episode besides the two new gear styles. Space ship I think rocked, and even though its been in game for a very long time, glad to see the bat signal as a base item.

Best original things I seen are a few of the new base items, what looks like a kryptonite aura on ultraman after getting hit by the spear, and the Hedron collider like speedforce tube quick is racing around in above our heads on the boss fight in the Escape raid.

I like what was done with the crime syndicate's cosmetics, for the most part, and love the change to superman's suit, but hate what they did to his facial features. He looks like hes talking with loose dentures or something, and superwoman (Wonder woman) looks like shes an old lady that has had way too much bad plastic surgery.

My best advice, is as a community, if you dont like something like the capsules, quark vendors, think they are cash grabs, ect, dont support it, and hopefully that feedback will be seen.


I really want the Devs to better balance our game, be successful, but also be mindful about pillaging their loyal fan base they have built up over the years with cash grabs and horrid RNG drop rates. These rates need to change fast. People would have better luck with scratch off lottery tickets. Id really like to see feats be something we earn in game again as well.

Here is a link from the interview from forbes magazine that DCUO's new ceo did years ago. Thats what other games dealt with then, and what we are dealing with now with these current business models for DCUO currently. I'll leave you with that as a close:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daniel...ceo-jack-emmert-on-free-to-play/#4a5e80216aef

Is there more of a challenge in creating a free-to-play environment? Risking division between a paying and non-paying userbase?
"Yes, there’s a challenge in finding where to monetize and how to monetize. It requires a lot of careful thinking because you don’t want to open things up to pay-to-win. In our market, the Western market, that is strongly frowned upon. Before it was just a matter of making a fun game. Now it’s a matter of making a fun game and finding out how to monetize it." -Jack Emmert, Forbes Magazine Interview 05/24/2013.

It's an interesting point, but I can't quite agree. I can go to my local supermarket and buy PSN cards with cash without any age restrictions, and then use this credit to buy gaming subscriptions and microtransactions.

And it's not merely about children - buy also people who are vulnerable or who have gambling problems.

I used to play poker tournaments in the casinos in the area I live in. My own gambling was controlled because I would play infrequently and I would enter a tournament for a fixed entry fee well within reasonable affordability limits. When I was out of the tournament, I got in the car and drove home. But in that time, I accumulated hundreds of hours in casinos and saw and met some people whose gambling was out of control in numerous ways.

Some of these problem gamblers were protected by the various measures that the casino implemented, and some weren't. The point is that by law, the casino had to be seen to be raising awareness of support lines, set certain types of withdrawal limit and allow people to self-exclude. They also had to be certain that you were over 18 before you could even enter the premises.

When Amazon Time Capsules came out, there was a couple on the EU server who were sat in watchtower happy to open time capsules for people for free. If they got a flaming phoenix feather, they kept it. If it was anything else, they handed the contents to the person who had given them the TC. Now of course, I've no idea if these people were vulnerable in any way - but neither does DBG who made a small fortune out of their compulsivity, and the law does not mandate them to do anything about it. In response to literally thousands of complaints about this system, the very few responses we have had have been to tell us how "successful" they are. It's just not good enough that gaming companies can count the money and shrug their shoulders in this way.

I've steered clear of how Time Capsules are designed because I don't want it to become a topic about character progression and feats, but when you look at that animation they added to the opening of a TC, it is like spinning a wheel. That animation is totally superfluous - you can even see the contents of the capsule are placed in your inventory before the animation has completed. I'd love to see a dev explain why that animation was added.

Some EU countries have started looking at the fact that gamble boxes (especially in games that are rated as "teen") are pushing the limits of their existing laws.

If this is your idea of "law making", I would never vote for you. Every bad decision in art and entertainment has been, "I don't like this and we have to protect the children, so it must be outlawed".

I would like to see a source, because as far as I know, legal gambling is allowed for all legal adults in all 50 states.

I am aware how time capsules work. People knowing that they can get something valueable or something worthless does not eliminate the potential for the system to have unfair and unpublished odds. People should know the odds. Otherwise, it is not a fair game of chance, which is why the forms of gambling which are regulated have this made clear to them.

I am aware how time capsules work. This is no way negates my point.

I am aware how time capsules work. This is no way negates my point.

4) and 5) You come across quite poorly in this post, don't you? What sort of person are you? You accuse me of hiding behind children, but you come across as someone who doesn't care about anyone outside their own country or who is open to exploitation. I'm actually embarassed for you.

Children can buy PSN cards (or have them bought for them), and problem gamblers need support with their problems, whether you give a hoot about them or not. Vulnerable people has a very specific defintion in the UK (that's a whole other country, I know - sorry) and it includes people with mental health issues, people with substance misuse issues, people with learning difficulties, and so on - all the sorts of people that laws are often designed to protect from neglect, abuse or exploitation.

If you don't care about how these things affect others, that's your personal view, but why have you bothered to reply at such length? Do you imagine you're replying to someone who is so unfamiliar with time capsules that they would create a post about the gambling aspect of them without knowing how they work, and that you had a duty to come along and explain the system to them?

And it stops being a 'US game" for regulatory purposes the minute it trades in other juristictions - so while your isolationist sentiments are amusing, THEY are the irrelevant element of this discussion.

So, wrong but not wrong then?