The Fighter Privilege (And why it is bad design)

I think it'd be nice to have locked forums, which are opened up by in-game achievements. They'd have predefined threads, like AA v ESF, which you''d only be able to post in after you had X kills in the ESF and killed Y ESFs with AA; unless you have experienced both sides your opinion is invalid.

ESF pilot POV:

Right now I play an even three-way split between infantry, Magrider and Scythe, and when I'm flying I wish I was on whatever server you're all on, where AA doesn't work and ESFs own the world.

Sometimes you'll find a section of the map where there's no air defense, where no-one thinks to spawn as HA with AA to scare you off, or as a Max to kill you. Where Skyguard Lightning's never turn up. When that happens flying an ESF is a lot of fun; You find a lone Sunderer or lone tank driving along with no air cover and it's pretty much free points. This is not because rocket pods are too powerful. This is because spitting off from your column and driving with no air cover is idiotic.

The rest of the time, if you're involved in a serious battle, flying ESF is 90% running away from stuff, or dying. I don't understand anyone who thinks AA cannons are ineffective (they seem plenty effective when I use them); if you fly carelessly near them then you get as much warning as the lone tank does to your rockets, and if you don't abort and high-tail it immediately then you get blown out of the sky. That's the main difference of course: if you screw up and get near an AA you have the capability to escape, while if a tank driver screws up and drives off without air cover there's not a lot he can do except die. As a tank driver who's done exactly that, I don't have a problem with it.
Skyguards are terrifying; an ESF will be lucky not to die in the initial volley. If you hate ESFs and all they stand for then go buy a Skyguard for your Lightning and use it constantly. You'll piss off the pilots no end.

1 or 2 people try to use AA in a group of 100 players againgst 30 ish aircraft. OFC you'r not going to do something agingst that many aircraft with so few dedicated AA players. If anything you need atleast 10 people to setup an effective AA defence. All i see in this post is "wah wah i can't shoot down 30 Aircraft by my self".

First of it's not my fault that people can't keep an eye on their surroundings. If they stay in the front then i can see them die quite quickly. But if they stand roughly 50 meters back and actually support then it's no problem at all. I do that all the time as a burster max while also picking my targets carefully so that that back doesn't get decimated. Libs and rocket pod flyers are a priority and so on. It's all about how you play it.

Currently AA is plenty strong while also outnumbering flying vehicles by a fair ammount. They also get the elemet of surprise since infantry can't be spoted at the same distance as a vehicle.

Put air counters back in the game, air does not counter air because its far stronger to just bomb the ground with rocket pods and not worry about other pilots

I don't know what hole these whiners keep crawling out.

Take AA and lots of it, problem solved. I see air, I take my AA max, problem solved - I don't render to them, so they don't even see me thus can't shoot me.

I think people are getting the difference between hard and soft counters wrong.

AA is a counter to aircraft, but it's a soft counter. A single AA unit does not automatically win against a single fighter because the fighter can get away from it, or even take it out. Get enough soft counters in one place and it's a serious threat, yes, but it's not ever an absolute.

Fighters on the other hand are a hard counter to many units, where if they engage one on one without outside interference they win by default because the other unit can't effectively retaliate in any way, not can it run away from a fighter.

It's that difference that's important here. A unit that has no hard counters but is a hard counter to nearly every ground unit and other air units is simply overpowered.

Well to be fair real fighter are exceptionally expensive and are not untilized in the high risk high steady reward situations that PS2 fighters are used in.

I think PS2 fighters are more meant to represent WW2 fighters than contemporary aircraft

Very good post and I completly support the original poster. There are many amateur mistake conerning this game, from a design perspective and its getting on my nerve.

+like

I'm using resources and reuse timers as am argument . Your request is blatantly over powered. A2A missiles are just flight versions of the HA G2A. According to your logic I should be able to ask for a ESF for 750 resources that is 3x faster, more powerful and manoeuvrable

Put it this way, your pure ground zerg will not take on an air zerg, sorry but free easy kills from AA are gone (if you can call about 20 airplanes a zerg).

Mix your units, a ground+flight zerg > anything pure you can send.

The problem is that your air is probably getting owned, therefore the other teams A2G are just gonna tear your ground apart plus of course... the ground they have.

Of course they call 20 ESFs a zerg. They called 20 tanks a zerg in beta too.

You do not need AA assets on the ground. Just ESFs of your own. The ground AA is pretty much just fluff. You can go without it easily and get more done by using air vs. air. It is like a 1 to 1 ratio opposed to a 3 to 1 ratio so it just makes more sense to use air against air. ESF is the hard counter to air and the easiest to use currently.

This type of post always makes me laugh. So many people on the internet think they could design a better game and that developers writing these games are just out of their depth. If they only had you to design it for them everyone would love it.

Get a clue. You're like that over weight dude at the foot ball game screaming at the players and refs about how stupid they are.

So many people think they have a great idea but so few people think through the implications and even those that do are probably hit by a plethora of things hey didn't expect.

Take Hamma's request that players shouldn't be able to bail out of an air craft unless they have the ejection system. At the surface this sounds easy and a no brainer but here is the reality. When do you allow a pilot to actually exit their air craft?

When it isn't moving at all? Well scythe bounces around a lot even after it as landed. All air craft slide on a slope. Can it be above a certain altitude? Do I think it is cheesy when pilots bail from an aircraft about to be shot down? Yes ... but there are ramifications that many people on these boards wouldn't think of and that is ok. Most people on these aren't analysts or developers.

If they have so many ESF set up as ground attack then countering them with ESFs should be easy

for everyone saying to nerf rocket damage or clip size i have this to counter , nerf feild repairs to vehicals as it is if i dont get the tank on the first pass it will be nearly back to full health once i reaquire it as its crew will hop out and fix it, sure i could hover but a on the ball sunther could drive me off or kill me let alone a tank and there are plenty of tank gunners who can swat a low hovering esf, as it is i can stomp a lone tank easy much the way a tank stomps a single foot pounder but a group of tanks can ward me off with there aa guns( they could use a traverse boost for there secondary weapons though) a lone skyguard or aa max will send me running to cover fast or i die, the only reason they are inefective is there quite rare as you get **** all for doing it, if aa got points for damage done to air there would be alot more of them

Against 10 ESFs and a Lib pulling ground support with rocket pods, all you need is 5 ESFs with A2A rockets. Compared to using a combination of 15+ MAXes and Skyguards to achieve the same effect, it is the better solution. ESFs also get kills easier than that ground AA due to superior lock on mechanic and can chase the enemy down when they try to break and run.

It makes too much sense.

Oh, nonononono, lol.

In beta, I SAW 100 tanks, it was the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen, every single time an empire started losing facilities, back to warpgate spawn 60 grounds and roll back, beta was largely full of tank spam because air were not there.

As far as saying you do not need AA, that is quite wrong, the more you combine and balance your assets the easier it is to push, a tank zerg with AA maxes and skyguards escorting plus a few ESF and libs in the back is the very best way to move anything, if you have... say:

50 vs 50

50 ESF/libs vs 10 AA, 20 ESF and 20 tanks/sunds, you not only will beat the air squad, you will take over the next objective, I have seen people trying to spam pure ESF/lib and it never goes well, eventually the opposition combines and pushes you back, not to mention the crashing that happens when you stack so many.

It is balanced, count the air zergs and post the videos of these "absurdly massive numbers", alot of talk from everyone who complains, not one video to prove it.

Everytime, I pull my AA unless I have like 5 ESF/lib combined, I just kill them, 2 ESF can be owned by a max, do the math from there.

I was there and yes once or twice there was about 80 tanks across two factions. It was a rarity. Most times it was 20-25 tanks and that is what most called the zerg.

You said this:

"Put it this way, your pure ground zerg will not take on an air zerg, sorry but free easy kills from AA are gone (if you can call about 20 airplanes a zerg)."

You do not need ground AA in the game. It is not as useful as getting ESFs with A2A. Sure, it can do damage but dollar to dollar, pound for pound ESFs are better for AA duty. I was with you on that point. If you have no air against their air they will take you. If you are relying on ground AA without anything in the air, they will take you. We are in agreement.

What do you guys think of this suggestion:

Make ESFs only have 1 weapon, instead of two. Think about it.

This! I never really understood the reason behind the walker nerf. They were (and still are) extremelly short range, but before they were deadly to any ESF dumb enough to come that close to one. Now they just tickle them.

My current opinion of flying a lot is that most AA seems fine. But I run at the moment Flak hits or a lock on sounds. (well mostly but when I dont run at the instant of either of those two Im respawning.)

A2A missiles, I never really have a problem with them targetting me. I will get away most of the time. Barely ever get A2A missiled. When I have been, its becuase I flew somewhere I shouldnt without cover or something to duck behind.

Me using A2A, I dont get how some pilots die so easily to them. You can make most of the air zerg suicide without even firing a missile just by locking on.

(Favourite tactic is blast the hell out of hover camping rocket tubing ESF with the hailstorm and then follow it up with an A2A missile up the japsy when their AB is gone... They never expect it).

A2G, when im on the ground I just feel like when theres more than a few enemy ESFs up there rocketing away you either dont go outside or you respawn. Forget your tank, if it needs repairs just get out and run. Vanu Photon pods are slower firing than Reaver or Mossie rockets it seems so arent as bad in a pass but still personally I think they are all over the top. A2G rockets are easy mode.

I changed my mind on this over the weekend, after having my scythe taking out constantly by freindlies flying into me. I couldnt get into the air to face enemy air at all. And then got rocketed so much that I ran out of lube.

I got annoyed and went Rockets myself when I could and just cruised over the landscape pwning stuff.

After that I figured the rocket clip size is too high. (I would halve it. and the magazine size as well)
Keep the damage limit number of rockets.
AA turrets are a liability. One pass with rockets and boom. Ok thats scary.

When I eventually got into the air I managed to rack up A2A kills with the hailstorm and A2A missiles. Why? becuase most pilots where looking at the ground, and made it easy to put a clip of the hailstorm in. By that point theyd use up there AB to get moving and then they couldnt outrun the missiles when they where weaving. A lot of revenge was had I can tell you.