Spitfire auto turrets are bad, should they be buffed?

Yes it is ..

Thank You

Hit reply doesn't show me quoting you ...
weird

Bleh, double post.

Non sequitur. The post I replied to said I had to compare the spitfire to the AI turret and only the AI turret. I gave a clear set of reasons why this is not the case. Whether the AV turret is less effective the the AI turret at killing infantry is irrelevant, and further, all of the disadvantages you list for the AV turret also apply to the AI turret. When choosing to use the spitfire you are explicitly choosing to not be able to affect vehicles at range. That is called opportunity cost.

No where did I say this means the spitfire deserves buff, but I was merely pointing out that carrying a spitfire has two costs associated with it instead of one.

Lol, no doubt, what is 50dmg at like 100RpM going to accomplish?

Frankly, im fine with them sucking, until such a day where you get one(1) turret until you resupply it.....not like im sure it is now....deploy it, it gets killed, make another one, kill it, make another......if they were really good, they would be derpy that way. Much like the MANA AV, unless it has changed.

I'd find it more fun to use them, if there was a 1min cooldown that started after the spitfire is killed. (or 3min)
Unlimited number to place. You could keep repositioning all you want, until someone destroys your spitfire, then it's dead to you for 1 minute.

I'm fine with a slight nerf to damage/health if people think it really needs it, to compensate for unlimited deployment w/ cooldown on spitfire death. I think making it more than single use would make it more fun to use, and fun is valuable to keep people playing.

Also, every kill/assist the turret gets should increase the amount of experience you get if you kill it.
and maybe disable turret for a couple of seconds if it hits an ally, give the spitfire some basic morality software. "if you've hit an ally, do not keep shooting them in the back trying to hit an enemy"


Crazy wishlist, only in my dreams:
*Ability to mount spitfire turrets to vehicles/aircraft like a sticky grenade.
Maybe for 1 day, on april fools. Galaxies with the undersides covered in spitfires, passing low over bases and harvesting infantry like a grim reaper skywhale.
*Have them target & damage vehicles/aircraft.
*NC gets a shotgun spitfire, TR gets chaingun, VS gets lasher spitfire.
*Spitfire feeds off the blood of enemies, increasing health, range, damage & intelligence. Eventually upgrading itself into a mobile deathbot, like an bot controlled MAX that knows no allegiance to any faction. It can hack vehicle terminals and spawn aggressive bot tanks & aircraft, planetside version of skynet. It's knife animation is a bear hug & 1 hit kill. It's permanently cloaked, twice as fast as you & can see as well as the eye of Sauron a full hex away & through walls.
It's first target is the engineer who gave it life.

Carrying an AV turret has two costs as well then. You don't have an automatic turret nor a protective usable AI turret at your disposal.
But your opportunity cost will be there no matter how good you make the Spitfire. It can fire OHK bullets up to 300m through walls and still you have this oppertunity cost of not being able to engage tanks and infantry because you didn't pick your AV turret. Therefore it's a completely moot point in the whole discussion unless you are trying to add AV capabilities to the Spitfire. Are you doing that?
So the AV turrets effectiveness at AI is irrelevant? I would say it's the most relevant in the discussion. Unless you are gunning for a case of "AV turrets are much more useful overall which is why I won't take either the Spitfire or the AI turret", but at that point my argument of "Tankbuster is best" applies. The whole argument of "AV turrets effectiveness against AI" works the other way as well. Spitfire AV effectiveness is irrelevant. At that point the only thing you are left with is the opportunity cost, but why is that relevant in a discussion about the Spitfire effectiveness? If you are never going to pick the Spitfire, there's no reason to talk about buffing or nerfing it, unless you encounter it yourself. But that wasn't one of your points...

So I'm actually at a complete loss at what you are trying to prove here? Just that the Spitfire needs to be compared to the AV turret as well? But then you are trying to compare taking AI mines over AV mines, or a ground lock-on vs an air-lock on. You pick them for different play styles and different situations. If you are a tanker or a player that often is in the field with an engineer, the AV turret is the best option combined with AV mines. If you are mostly doing defense of area's and places, the Spitfire or AI turret become candidates along with AI mines, as you won't find many tanks at the point in most bases. Or you can go an intermediary... it depends on your play style what gives you the best opportunity, and how costly your opportunity cost is when you pick something else. The guy who is always doing point-defense or attacking by holding an enemy point will feel that taking an AV turret is a bad choice overall, as his opportunity cost is different due to the things he engages (AI mostly).
Actually, your whole argument might also be "but why take an engineer, if you can take a Heavy/LA/Medic/MAX". Each has their own opportunity costs when taken, with different loadouts and opportunity costs within the classes... Do we need to add these to the discussion as well?

You can sit in front of a motion spotter or Shield Regenerator as well and knife it to death. the point of any tool is that it's used in combination with a player. How about this: I place a Spitfire, and you try to knife it to death while I'm still in the room. Do you think you'll win the fight?
Or how about this, you take any class you want, and I prepare a room with an engineer and a random turret. Then you storm the room, and we'll see which turret is the most effective: Spitfire, AI turret or AV turret. Of course you have to take into account multiple ways of attacking, etc. I will probably win with the AI/AV turret if you enter the room in my sights (and I hit with the AV turret), but if you flank me I'm dead meat... Hey! at that point the Spitfire is perfect, it doesn't mean I'm instantly dead during a flank and my Spitfire can even alert me! After that it adds some nice DPS... unless it was the bullet sponge first. With any weapon but LMG's you are already halfway through your magazine before the Turret is dead, good luck killing me with half a magazine!

Do you have to think when facing a spitfire, or do you not need to think when facing a spitfire?

That's the trick. You do have to think when facing the Spitfire because the thoughtless approach that tends to get you shot in the flanks is the inclination to shoot at the turret when you first see it. You need to make certain your target is the person who might be minding the turret.

Spitfire should have less no-deploy zones and stay after changing class, like mines. Also should be able to carry like 5+ of them (only 1 deployed at time) Until then, I'm not shelling 7 bucks just to distract a single enemy then run with empty turret slot, when I can carry pocket AV cannon or mobile cover.

As Fate already mentioned, if you engage a Spitfire you do have to think. If the turret is alone it poses no threat, just like a Motion Spotter or Shield regenerator doesn't pose a threat if no-one is there to make use of it.
If the owner or other allies of the turret are there to make use of it... Yes you suddenly do have to think. Do you engage the turret, hoping the owner or allies aren't there? This will give away your position and the fact that you are there. Did you find out about the turret beforehand, or did it already see and fire at you? If it fired then it's already alerted nearby allies of the turret that you are there. If it didn't fire... how do you approach it? Do you charge into the room, hoping any surprise you have will allow you to find an ally of the turret before your flank advantage goes to waste? Do you deal with the turret by destroying it so it's DPS doesn't mess with the fight to come with any turret ally? If you do engage it, will the turrets allies come at you before you are reloaded or your shields recharged? If they do, you are at a disadvantage again... and all because they placed one auto-turret.

So yeah, you do have to think when facing a spitfire.

*sigh* you guys still are not getting it.


Effective =/= OP.


Making the spitfire more effective & useful in its role will not make it OP.

1. Your AV/AI mine analogy is wrong. AV mines will not trigger against infantry, so an AV mine cannot be used against infantry the same way that an AI mine can. You are also proving my point, because you are only looking at AV mines vs AI mines. Last I checked, engineers can also carry C4. So the choice is not just between AI and AV, because you also have an option that is effective against both vehicles and personnel, but does not go off automatically.

2. My point is that the spitfire must be balanced against both the AI turret and the AV turret. No, the spitfire does not need AV capabilities, but you have to realize that by choosing it, you are giving up your ranged AV capabilities. At least when I take the AI turret, I lose my AV capabilities for a gain in AI DPS. Here comes the math. Fully certed Mana AV turret DPS against infantry @ 100% accuracy -> 13.3 RPM x 1335 DPR = 17755 damage per minute + splash damage. Fully certed AI turret shoots at 750 RPM for 10.5 seconds, then has a 4 second cooldown. That means you get an average of about 543 RPM x 143 DPR = 77649. So for losing the ability to hurt armor, I gain a 4.3x increase in potential DPS. Both the AV turret and the AI turret can be used to hit targets out to 300m. The spitfire does 400 RPM with a burst/reload mechanic which mean it is probably close to around 300 RPM at 100 DPR = 30000 damage per minute, has a range of 50 meters, is easier to destroy, and has a limited deploy mechanic, but it allows you to be mobile and use your own weapon at the same time. Is that balanced? I will let others draw their own conclusions. My point is that you can't cherry pick what you want to compare, you must look at the whole picture.

It needs it's tracking abilities & bullet velocity made much better. It's so easy to ADAD and destroy it that the activation cost on a HA NMG shield is more damaging than the spitfire.

I think they're fine as is. They're a great proximity alarm, they are a nice distraction, and they can actually kill if the enemy is distracted.

The only tweaking they need is some of the QoL issues other folks have brought up. Not sure I have an opinion on that stuff.

Yes buff them to Max levels so that we can just drop them at the point and go hunting for enemies without worrying about some solo guy capping.

Could have shotgun versions for point defense.

Then you could have a raven version that auto tracks vehicles, but make them 2 hit vehicles cause otherwise they would just be useless.

Should probly have a sniper version too. Set it up on a hill and it headshots anything that moves within render range.

Could adjust up from there as needed.

I dont think a single turret should be able to kill more than a platoon before it is destroyed.

It's the future most of the weapons systems should be automated. It's 2015 why are we fighting each other when we have turrets that can win for us?

just lob a grenade at them... unlike players they cant run away so you are guaranteed destruction. unless you got chicken wing and throw a bit less capably then a 5 year old. in PS2 you dont have to worry about this... so yeah remove the ammo cost and ill buy one. i spend real money on my purchases... but only if they are worth it. use certs for upgrades. buy it once... buy it forever.

Spend a grenade on a turret? Especially when they want people to have the option to use recharging turrets? So basically you would be spending limited, resource costing grenades on something that your enemy can place for free and has infinite off...
Oh, and about the chicken wing thing, this is already implemented in the PS2 game, grenades will hit walls, obstacles and other stuff you weren't even aiming near simply because the grenade physics are borked.

The purchase is worth it, you just have to know how to use it. The Spitfire could use a few small upgrades, but damage and infinite placements are not part of those.