Lately there have been many threads about AT mines being OP against sunderers and people saying “just cert mineguard” etc. I believe that the current situation is a result of AT mines not being very effective as an area denial tool and the only way to actually get kills with them (besides being lucky and mining a bridge) is to become a “suicide miner.” I have several suggestions that I believe would eliminate these suicide runs while still keeping mines as a feared tool. Increase the number of mines that engineers can carry: make the number like 10, certable up to something like 20. This allows engineers to make actual mine fields which vehicles have to avoid or clear. Decrease the amount of damage that mines do to vehicles: my suggestion would be 1 mine for flash, 2 for lightning, 3 for MBT, 4 for sunderer. This (coupled with number 1) will give vehicles a chance to survive a minefield while still doing significant damage to vehicles. Make it so mines do not blow up except due to 1) infantry fire and 2) a HMG shot (from basilisk or kobalt): this makes drivers dismount their vehicles in order to clear a minefield or keep a basilisk/kobalt on top. Sunderer drivers might wait for people to load their vehicle before leaving since they could clear mines. Allow engineers to pick up enemy mines: make it a cert, with higher levels decreasing the time to pick them up. A picked up mine goes straight to the engineer’s stash. Engineers now are an essential class to have along in a sunderer or squad. Allow engineers to recall their mines: let them push a key and get back say 50% of the mines they placed, cetable up to like 75% or so. Sometimes the enemy doesn't go where you think they will go and it would be nice to not waste a huge amount of resources. Decrease the cost of mines: this one is a no brainer with number 1. Allow stacking of mines with exceptions: make it so that if you stack mines on top of each other they actually stack, becoming more visible and easier to see and avoid/defuse. I believe that all these suggestions would eliminate the suicide runs, reward smart engineers, and make for some very interesting play. Suicide runs is the job for C4, not AT mines though they are still viable as such – just requiring more time to place. Sorry about the long post.
What would stop people from stacking 4 mines in a small pile with the expectation that a Sunderer will drive over it? Then vehicles would still get one-shot by mines, instead now being it a stack of 4 instead of a stack of 2.
I actually feel that there is three (relatively) easy fixes that would stop the current perceived AT mine issue... Deployment Range - Like mines were in PS1, only allow them to be deployed with some distance between them - about the length of a Sunderer should be sufficient. Fixes: Stacking AT Mines, for instant kills Deployment Time - Use similar deployment times, but not method (so an Engy doesn't spend a minute trying to find a flat surface) as ammo packs. Fixes: Defenders available response time to "Suicide Engineers" Increased Volume/Decreased Damage - Double the number of mines, half the damage per mine. Allows for more of a minefield to be laid. Fixes: Two mines being a insta-kill By doing just these three things (1 and 2 may need more coding, 3 would likely just be a values change) then I reckon we'll see more proper minefields, and suicide engies using C-4 as nature intended!
Gotta say...I really like this idea. Even if it doesn't immediately add to your own inventory, the ability to 'clear a minefield' (or basically otherwise undo enemy fortifications) would be a handy addition to the class. As you say, it would suddenly make engies an important addition to a Sundy crew instead of just being 'the MAX medic'. Granted, you'd actually need to HAVE minefields, then, for this to really be meaningful, so...yeah, that 'double the mines, halve the damage' thing would be necessary.
The hopeful counter to this would be #7. The idea would be to make them stick out of the ground and become more visible the more mines on one spot. This would allow people to stack mines for insta kills yes, but by stacking you increase their visibility and reduce your chances for a kill of an alert sundy driver. I think for this to work mines might need to be thicker and protrude from the landscape more than they do now.
Mineguard is available for a reason. The best guard against suicide miners is to shoot them, run them over, or drive away from them. If a vehicle is unguarded or unmanned, it's equally likely to get blown up by a fighter, HA, or an enemy vehicle as it is to be killed by a suicide miner.
I've shot quite a few engis that try to mine me or drive around them. The resource cost of the mines is too high to make them so spam heavy. They're fine the way they are. One rank of mine guard will usually let you survive if you're at full health.
I'd say that some of your suggestions are reasonable and might make C-4 more useful for "suicide bombing". Now, if you got blown up by three packs of C-4, would you think it was OP too?
I think my problem with mines currently is the following: What are mines supposed to be used for? The first thing that comes to mind is not suicide bombing. It's to prevent vehicles from passing through a chokepoint and to delay an advance unless the attacker is willing to take a lot of damage and lose vehicles. Mines currently are only really effective in one role: sneaking up on a vehicle and putting them under it. While this is satisfying I do not think that this should be the primary use of mines. Mines should be used to make an area impassable to vehicles. Putting 2 mines down doesn't deny any area and won't slow down any advance.
I have literally never had a suicide miner attack my Sundy - a couple have tried it against me in my tank and all have failed miserably. That said I like the direction of your suggestions bringing it back to more of the PS1 levels and feel of CE. I do not approve of number 5. I understand that the enemy doesn't always go to where you place your CE - but hey, that's a gamble, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Furthermore if anything I feel that infantry resources are too cheap, not too expensive - I have the maximum stack of every infantry consumable and am virtually always resource capped - so I don't really see the need to relieve / complicate the (non)issue.
What if we have two types of mines? I made some threads about CE in the beta forums, and talked about it at length with a few people, and we came to some conclusions (only gonna mention the ones about mines right now). High Yield Mines Basically the ones we have now, keeping the high damage and resource cost. Hell, you could even call them Anti-Tank Charges, to get rid of complaints about the suicide bombing. Alternatively, if you really don't think bombing with them is a good idea, you could just take the current mines and make them instantly blow up when you place them on an enemy vehicle, killing you before you can place a second, or have a longish timer before arming. You would use these if you absolutely wanted to blow the **** out of any tank that came upon your minefield, instantly. Low Yield Mines Some people are saying half damage and double count, in beta we said a third damage and quad- or quintuple count, they're both good. Lower damage, lots of mines, deployment radius, more PS1-style. If you wanted to really lay in-depth minefields, these would be the ones for you. Resource cost is an interesting thing. You could give them really low resource costs, or make them free (could possibly be a bit OP, but listen). Like the turrets, these things would only be useful if you placed them tactically, and like rockets, they only do a small amount of damage per hit. Neither of those are considered unbalanced. Anyway, I don't really know much about game balance, and am probably pretty biased, so it's not really up to me to decide on this.
You know lowering the damage on mines will keep people from using them, yeah? If my mines can't kill my target, all I do is give the enemy repair xp and cost myself resources. They aren't going to drive into more of them after they hit the first. Same reason I don't use my skyguard. Deterrence doesn't mean much when most drivers/pilots are engineers and those deterring get little to no reward for doing it. Like it or not, we need certs to keep improving our characters.
You'd be surprised. These ARE the people who complain that infantry can kill them from coming up behind them while they're stationary, you know. As long as they don't have a gunner who would see the infantry coming, anyway. Seriously, though, they might not be able to decelerate in time.
The idea would be to force the engie to get out where they are vulnerable or to reverse and hold up any other vehicles in the column. Plus most people go driving everywhere at full speed and when they take damage their first instinct is to keep moving to avoid more damage. If I take damage in my mag I don't sit there and wonder what hit me, I move around to make the next shot harder for the enemy. This won't help me in a minefield.
I think they work fine as they are. I sometimes have my sunderer destroyed by them but that is only when I am being inattentive or carelessly leaving my sundy unguarded. I usually make sure to have the sunderer covered at least some of the time. Engies are pretty soft targets and they have to get pretty close, after all. Play as a team, park the sunderer in a clever position and keep your eyes peeled!
As far as explosives go I’ve only unlocked the lvl 1 C-4 so far, so I'm hauling around this single explosive device. On occasion I'll see a damaged enemy sundy or other vehicle, sneak over, and try planting the c-4 on the thing. Sometimes I get a kill or assist.
I agree that they work well now. I killed probably 6 sundies today in 30 min. But as of right now they are only really effective as buffed C4. I want mines to have more uses than one that is already filled by another explosive.
Even though I have a lot of fun right now one-shotting unsuspecting sunderers, in their current form AT mines serve the function that C4 should have. AT mines should be for area denial, but with the paltry amount we get it's impossible to use them effectively in that manner. Fully upgraded, we should have 20+ mines that perhaps do 1/4 hp damage to vehicles, but it would be impossible to cross a road without hitting at least 3. In exchange for reduced damage, they need increased activation range so that even if a vehicle doesn't drive right over it, it will still take some damage. They should also have a small forced separation, not big... maybe 1 meter.
