Why I think RoK factioning is basically unfair to pure crafters.

Arrex@Kithicor wrote:

So, because a 'pure crafter' is only utilizing about 10% of the content this game has to offer it is unfair? Sorry to say...but your arguement just show's how snide and stuck up players can be. Every player wants something, but if the current system doesn't suit the way they play, it's borked and unfair.
The whole thing comes down to choice. You made a choice to only do a tiny portion of the content in this game, suck it up or press on. I have both a pure crafter and an adventure crafter. I do not think a pure crafter should be treated differently in the slightest!!! The pure crafter chose to do it this way...when there is far better ways to do it, thats the penalty they pay.
Just like an adventure who doesn't pick up crafting, has to rely on the 'kindness' of a crafter to get the item he needs and pray he's not being overcharged. Trust me, a pure crafter has it easy, and gains exp easy, gains coin easy, and gains faction just as easily. It takes no time at all to level a crafter vs leveling an adventurer, thats the price Adventurers pay.
If you think I'm wrong in that....take a lvl 70 adventurer and spend an hour questing, killing, etc and see JUST how much exp you gain in that hour. Then take a level 70 crafter and spend an hour doing recipes and writs and see how much you gain. I can pretty much gaurantee you that the 70 crafter will ding inside of an hour, while the adventurer gains a bubble of exp....
Like I keep saying... the only thing unfair about the faction grind is the player playing the pure crafter whining that it doesn't get put in his lap for him wrapped in a big red bow! You need to get your noses out of the air, cause staring down at everbody else is only showing how much snot is dripping out of it. Stop being stuck up and thinking your owed everything because you sacrificed NOTHING!!!!!! except your own time. A pure crafter is NOT more diserving than an Adventure Crafter and thats all there is to it.
And 750 faction a writ is a hell of a lot better than what it was. At most, it will take a player 6 hours of their precious time to get to 30 k faction from -39,750, which...is pretty much on par with how long an adventure would take to get to 30 k faction....

Leucippus wrote:

1. Nope. Regardless of any other concerns, a high level crafter/high level adventurer has more time invested, has often consciously leveled that way specifically to derive synergies, and deserves a slight bonus as a result. I don't claim they deserve the degree of bonus Kunark has provided, but there has to be a slight divergence on that basis alone, if no other. In any case, I still maintain that the timing isn't at fault so much as the monotony. Give crafters acquisition/delivery quests that take 4-5 times as long as a writ (call it about 20 minutes), yield better cash (say, about 20ish gold on completion) and 2500 faction each, but are only able to be completed once or twice every 10k faction, or require a crafting writ to be completed between times, or any number of other balances.
2. People'd complain that X class has it easier than Y class and Z class, but generally I like this idea. Mostly because I loathe Geocraft with a passion usually reserved for lawyers and politicians.
3. I'd like to think they already do this - I've been surprised at some of the places my lowbie adventuring alts have gone scatheless, and I can't help but think that the devs could have prevented that if they'd wanted to. Matter of fact, back in the day, that's exactly what they did.
4. There's really no need to add new locations. You die, you revive, you pay the whopping few silver to repair... It's a pain to have to retrace the same ground sometimes, but them's the breaks. Same-same whether adventurer or crafter dies.
5. Far too exploitable. Besides, where mobs roam isn't always necessarily their choice.
6. For some quests (such as fedex/known locations, etc) I've wanted to see this for ages. For others, it doesn't make sense but for the New Lands stuff you should at least get waypoint in his vicinity, i.e. center of the nearest appropriate landmark.
7. You can't honestly be claiming that after the first few tries you won't have a pretty good handle on this already, can you? Now on the other hand, if the quest-giver were to give you special perfume/pheremones (lasting a short while only, one charge only) which reduced all aggro radii to half, that might be more worthwhile and make sense in context.
8. I don't see why a non-adventuring crafter can't use some of the up-to 500ish inventory slots to store several stacks of fuel, myself. As an adventuring crafter and despite the fact I'm chronically short of bag space, I carry around stacks of T8 provi fuels and raws, just in case. Just in case of what, I'm not sure, but if I can do it I'm not sure I see why the broker/merchants need to get involved. Making the bank available to crafters might be nice, though, since those with low adventure levels will tend to have low strength and be limited for personal inventory space.

Rashaak wrote:

No way. The disparity in time between the adventurer path and the crafter path is a secondary issue and only really becomes important due to the primary issue. The primary issue remains, which is, adventurer/crafters should not be gaining crafting rewards through adventuring.
Solve the main issue and all crafters will be on even footing just as all adventurers are now on even footing since they all have to do the same tasks to get the same rewards. Turn this on its head and see how easy that is to swallow. Let's say level 80 adventurer/crafters could opt to only do crafting and receive all their adventurer rewards free and clear. How would the non-crafting adventurer feel then? I doubt they would be very pleased.
Do not forget, at RoK release it was even 3 times worse than this since writs only gave 250 faction as compared to the 750 they give now. So at release, no attempt at all was made to even consider an equality of effort between adventuring and crafting. When they changed to 750, they still hadn't cared to consider the effort. They would have to at least double it again to make the effort equitable between adventurers and crafters and that would still leave the primary issue, namely, some crafters did not have to do any crafting at all to get their crafting recipes.

Rashaak wrote:

Two characters, both level 80 adventurer / 80 crafter.
The first character levels adventuring first and follows the quest lines for the XP, AA, and quest rewards. By choosing to level adventuring first a character is granted access to all the content, both crafter and adventurer; rightfully has less risk while harvesting and traveling; and gets to level crafting at home on city writs while earning bonus XP, guild status, and more coin.
The second character levels crafting first and follows the crafter quest lines for non-KOS faction, harvests through one-shot agro, and performs the 279 writs required to gain access to the lowest of the faction rewards - the crafting items. Then they level adventuring following the adventurer quest lines for XP, AA, and quest rewards. In the end, the character completes both the quests and the writs, and forgoes the city crafting writ bonus XP and guild status. Which one put in more total effort to level both aspects of the character?
Separating the faction rewards to different factions requires that both choices require the same effort, while still granting the adventurer first characters the innate advantages of safer travel and harvesting that come with a more powerful adventurer. It does not provide an ‘easy button' for choosing to level crafting prior to adventuring. By providing adventuring rewards for adventuring and crafting rewards for crafting, it does create parity in the effort versus reward equation for the choice of leveling as either a crafter or an adventurer first.

Rashaak wrote:

Comedy gold here. You are trying to tell me, that you can do 93 writs, which entail hitting 3 tables for each writ in Danak in 6 hours? Less than 4 minutes per writ? Wait, you said 6 hours at most, so I guess it can be done even faster. Please invite me to watch when you do this. This I have to see.

Qandor wrote:

Well, look at it this way, atleast you don't have to grind writs for only a 150 faction per writ. That mechanic is still the same as when the game was first introduced, and has not changed. These recipes are not the end all be all of crafters. They are just an added bonus that is all...it is not a defining aspect of crafting in the slightest.

Rashaak wrote:

You are *completely* missing the point. It's not an issue, at the heart of things, of who can do it faster and who does it slower. It's that one side doesn't have to do "It" at all, while the other side still does. The content IS different because the current setup allows adventurer crafters to never have to even craft a single item and gain the crafter recipes available at certain faction levels.

But if you're okay with that,then fine. Are you also okay with crafters being able to go above 30k with faction and thus gain access to the adventuring rewards at the 40k and 50k levels without ever having to kill a single mob?

Jehannum wrote:

It must be nice having plat flowing out of your ears.

(One stack of tier 8 fuel costs 2 plat, for those that do not know. Well, OK, for provisioners it is 1 plat per stack, but the writs consume twice as much fuel for these RoK writs, at least in Danak)

-Leucippus

After reading all the posts, these are some of the positive ideas to make things a little even between crafter and adventurers.
1. Add 30k faction to the rewards for the New Lands, New Profits Quest and the High Risk, Higher Profits Quest. The quest is dangerous which is why the reward should be increased.
2. Increase the faction given by crafting writs to 1k.
After the initial quests are completed and the rewards are given, Taskmaster Greeblentus could give crafters letters to take to the appropriate people to give them the extra 30k faction. People that have already completed this quests should aso be flagged to received letters so that they could also receive the bonus faction.
The Factoin needed for the TS epic which is at -20k would have to be raised to 10k compensate for the boost in facton.

Leucippus wrote:

Any character, crafter or adventurer either one, for whom 2 or even 20 platinum - which will be repaid - is too great an investment to achieve recipes which obviously have such a substantial draw, doesn't want them enough to actually work for the achievement. I can make a plat or two for crafting all of about two hours as a provisioner, and I know other crafters in nearly every discipline who make more simply by charging for mastercrafting. I could do writs and make a plat in an hour or two, easily. Even factoring in the time and effort to harvest in non-aggro areas, I could make several plat in a matter of 3-4 hours; 1-2 from writs, and more from harvested rares, all of which products could easily be priced to sell by the next time I logged in.
Sorry, but anyone who proffers this excuse is generally just looking for things to be made trivial. Making cash is easy. People make multiple plat by level 10 or 15 if they know what they're doing, and all the tools are there for anyone to take advantage. Adventurers have more options, granted, but on Crushbone even T1 rares fetch reasonable prices on the broker. Not enough to make as much money as a T8 adventurer could, but there are aggro-free (or aggro-light) harvest areas for every tier and every resource. And a T8 crafter/T1 adventurer's repairs are cheap.
I have no sympathy for the indigent; sell or kill for money, but don't presume that just because I have plat I make it hand over fist. I've never made more than 1-2 plat in a day on broker sales, give every master and extra rare I get to my guild. I just also live within my means, because I have made the decision not to pursue wealth to a greater extent. And yes, I complain about the price of T8 masters; but it's only idle - I'm fully cognizant of the fact that the reason I can't afford to throw away that kind of cash is because of the choices I've made. That said, if I wanted to put 50 stacks of coal in my sack and work faction in Kunark I could and would. When I wanted to get the last two shinies to finish the goggles, I did. Priorities.
But like I say, I do acknowledge that the lack of banker services is intended to be an equal penalty but ends up hitting lopsided crafters moreso than it does adventurers, because the latter can generally carry more slots' worth of bags and the former has a greater need for mass storage during the craft grind.
@Y131 - I'm not sure those are crafter-restricted; at least, I'm pretty sure I did them on my balanced adv/crafter. Better to add the faction through alternative, also-crafting-related quests through the process was my thought. Because after all, adventurers could ignore the non-repeatable faction quests and grind, just as crafters should have the opportunity to take part or ignore similar quests related to their disciplines.

Youngone31 wrote:

A very nice positive post You have some very good ideas.

Youngone31 wrote:

While I think the general principle of what your proposing is fine, what is listed I am completly against. This would completly trivialize getting any of the factions and hense the problem. Now maybe some combination or twiddling of the numbers sure. Although to be frank mostlikely the next time round (like domino posted) it will just be a seporate faction so everyone reguardless of adventure or not will have to grind it. IT will also mostlikely be just as painful as it is now, it's just everyone reguardless of adventure or not.

Ohiv wrote:

The faction rewards have already been trivialized when high level adventurers were able to do quest with large faction bonuses to buy crafting rewards. I could have done the same with my high level adventurer but did not because I do not think the weaponsmith recipes were worth it. There is nothing that can be done about that now.
I know that Domino has not been the TSdev for a year yet so she will make a few mistakes. Adventuring and crafting should have had two seperate factions and probably will in the future.
I am proposing a few sugestions to modify the faction given by the crafting quests and writs so low level adventurers/crafters will not feel so slighted at the way things are now.

Rashaak wrote:

This thread is like watching Fox News.

Talzar wrote:

/spews coffee all over her keyboard while laughing hysterically

Kaisha wrote:
A nice bump in Faction earned per Crafting Writ in RoK wouldn't be turned down, though, Domino .. say .. 1,000k faction per writ? Cuts it down a bit more and makes it less of a headache to do the math calculations on how many more writs are left ... *laugh*
Have to say I did not read this whole thread casue I have 3204589434589 writs to do on my jeweler lol .. But I love this idea !! And I would think this is something that could happin sooner than later..
I think the guy that keeps saying risk vs reward is full of it oops did I say that lol.. You get LOTS more faction per Adv quest and the quests are 95% soloable matter fact most people will not even group for them they say they are too easy.. lol Alot of risk going on there .. So your getting easy faction and quite alot of $$ with mininal risk imo.. /duck
I have 4 toons over lvl 70 two of which are lvl 80 and I have to agree that the crafters are having to work sooo much harder than the Adv.. I saw someone post about maybe a added little quest for factions on crafters, deliver such and such to so and so for a large bump after grinding maybe 7-10 writs.. I like that idea lots hehe ...

Qandor wrote:

Do those solo quest lines as an assassin, then do them as a raid-spec'd defiler. There is no way all adventurers are on even footing, not even close.

Gorhauth wrote:

Well you know, we all have our problems. Weaponsmiths have been in the toilet for 2 years and Sages, well, they get to sell adept 3's regularly. So what does any of this have to do with the matter at hand? Can't do solo quests solo? Then group quest them. Class balance is not the issue here, try the combat forum.

Qandor wrote:

He made a valid point. His class choice made the overall process longer. The same way that the lack of class choice makes the low level crafters overall process longer.