We're Nerfed Alot, But Who Here Can Still Rage? Berserker Strat 101

To respond to Pin StNeedles:
A large amount of damage I do does in fact come from my weapon and I concede the fact that it would be very very hard for many berserkers to reach this amount of damage with weapons more conventionally available. Thus, in order to make this post abit more representitive I'll use a Heiro Crook tonight and do some parsing to give a better base. While I admit that 400 dps with the Crook is highly unlikely, I think that 300 will be attainable.
The reason being is that for my potential on a single White/Yellow Herioc ^^ to decrease below 300 would mean that my proc is doing 22.7% of my DPS in a given fight. To look at the numbers. I have a picture of a single target mob which I did 387 DPS to. For over 87 of my dps to come from procs means that my proc would have to be firing at max damage (around 300) every 3.4 seconds for the duration of the fight. Meaning that in that period of time I would have to had attacked around 28-29 times for that many procs to fire (12% chance to proc). Again the point I was attempting to make by listing my DPS was to say that it IS possible to do insane amounts of DPS still with the tools at our disposal.
I have also moved the strategy portion of this thread to a new topic to discuss and give a forum to different wayst to play the class. As such I'd like it if Pin StNeedles and Aonein can check that thread and post their strats so we can give different takes on how to play our class so that people can better tailor to playstyle. DPS will be left out of that post so as to avoid this type of debate.
Message Edited by Sabin the Great on 04-13-2005 01:40 PM

Sorry, but you missed that I'm talking about all procs that you have on (not just the weapon proc). Also, displayed proc percentages need to be weighted by the weapon delay, normalised to a 3.0sec weapon... i.e. your flail has a 12/3*3.8 = 15.2% chance to proc (check the other proc thread further down for confirmation).

Basically, in that group you have screenshotted you have:
15.2% chance to proc from the Flail
12.7% chance to proc anarchy
29.1% chance to proc blood rage
10% (e.g.) chance to proc the troubadour buff (don't know the percentage)
10% (e.g.) chance to proc the coercer buff (don't know the percentage)
+ any other procs you might have

And this is with every melee hit (including combat arts). I would estimate that that totals well over 200 dps from procs (as you have adept3s of yours, and I guess the others in your group have adept3s of theirs).

Switching to a Crook, you would have
3.8% chance to proc from the Crook
7.6% chance to proc anarchy
17.6% chance to proc blood rage
6% (e.g.) chance to proc the troubadour buff (don't know the percentage)
6% (e.g.) chance to proc the coercer buff (don't know the percentage)
+ any other procs you might have

See the difference? Except the number of combat arts you do in the two cases hasn't changed, so the proc damage here might only be 100 dps.

Then change to some 1.2sec DW weapons (can be equivalent, master quality), and those proc percentages are further-halved, knocking another 50 dps off (which is a big reason why scouts parse so poorly).

Ah ok I see what you are saying.
So all procs are normalized currently to a 3.0 sec delay weapon. Thus weapons that are faster actually have a smaller chance to proc per hit? This is definately wayyyyyy to the contrary of popular convention that faster is better and thus offers greater chances to proc. Out of curiosity (in all seriousness), where is the normalization to a 3 second delay listed or discussed? I was just curious because this seems so strange that they would scale procs like that rather than just having a random type system that gives you a 12/100 chance to proc every hit. I see where you are going with the dps now, and I'm going to try to parse some Heirophant crook numbers tonight and I'll pop back in to give the results so we can generate some conclusions to this point.

Would like to see the out come of that Sabin.
Pin, with that Flail that Sabin has i bet there wouldnt be any wep in game that would come close to it if you didnt use combat arts. Its a awesome weapon simply because of the proc, no weapon in a raw dps mode would out DPS it, even with a proc. Take the procs off and dont use any combat arts and maybe it would do the same raw dps of a set of dual weild weps of same tier and rarity.
As for the way procs are normalized etc, yeah its beginning to show a flaw, but then again, its not like there is 500 of those Flails floating around on every server.

You can follow the link in here for that statement.

It being normalised to a 3.0sec weapon actually doesn't matter, all that does is provide the scale for which the proc chance is displayed in the examine window.
The part that DOES matter is that it's scaled by the weapon delay... This means that weapons (of all types) will have a consistent fire-rate of procs no matter what speed. i.e. using a fast weapon which states 10% chance to proc will give the same number of procs per minute (on average) as a slow weapon - this (in theory) makes it easy to compare weapons, as "10% chance to proc 100 damage" is the same as "10% chance to proc 100 damage" for different weapons.

Unfortunately. this is only true when using auto-attack. Rate of combat art use does not scale with weapon speed, but the proc chance does. Thus if you use a slow weapon, it greatly increases proc rate when using combat arts (and in a group where power is not an issue, you constantly do).
Message Edited by Pin StNeedles on 04-13-2005 08:37 PM

Also they just increased proc rates of posions by 100%, so im not sure, but that may increase a scouts damage quite a bit, i wouldnt know personally cause i never really dabbled in how much they really proced before.

On this note, I'm definately hoping for a increase in scout damage rather than a nerfing of fighter damage. I will admit fighter vs scout dps is abit out of wack, but alot of that goes back to the skill of scouts. I hate to say it but it takes more skill to be a DPS scout than a DPS fighter due to positioning, range, posion, etc.

The weapon is an an awesome weapon because of the speed, not because of the proc, and it's merely an extreme case.

It should be just another 55 damage rating master drop, beating heritage by 10% auto-attack damage and lower than a prismatic greatsword, and having a nice proc (around double a prismatic), which should mean that a prismatic greatsword would be roughly equal to it. However, the prismatic is only 2.3sec, and when loaded with proc buffs and spamming arts, it just cannot come close to the flail in raw DPS (we're talking 50% higher here - which should NOT be happening).

Well, currently you can easily outdamage lvl 50 Wizards with that weapon if you are loaded with procs (maybe not lvl 50 Warlocks, but close).
The rest of the fighter population with faster weapons fall much more in line, and Scouts (who have access to an even smaller weapon choice) are hindered further.

Another test to do to illustrate this is to parse how much DPS you and your Ranger friend do from Anarchy, and the Troubadour/Mystic proc buffs. If all things were equal, they should be similar amounts...

SOE obviously know about the issue with proc DPS, hence their nerf last patch (change them from being able to chain-proc to plain DD), so I do expect this disparity to change sooner or later (if they've spotted this cause, of course).

I group with a wizard,warlock and brusier regularly who have all adept 3 or better for there nukes and DoT's and attacks, its a feat for me to keep up 160+ dps against them..... you have the pics to show your 400+ dps but i HIGHLY doubt you will sustain that with heavy dps in you group.....

Did you see the back to back parses pic? I'm not saying that every single time I engage a mob I do 300-400 dps. If you averaged my numbers across time I'd likely average 200-250. Again, there are times when I'll only parse 100-150 damage (i.e. adds that I have to engage prior to actually attacking, or sometimes its just flat *$%#&! hard as hell to hit mobs sometimes), but generally speaking I'm well into the 200's far more often than I'm in the 100's.
One note that I want to bring up here is that I was MT'ing when I parsed these numbers. I was not getting the benefit of hitting the mob in the back (which makes it easier to hit), so concievably I could've done more damage if I was off tanking.
Lastly, whether you believe my numbers or whether you think my group/weapon/etc. are to thank for my DPS, my point all along is that we have the potential to do TONS of dps and we are not "****" tanks and we are not "low damage" tanks. My pictures prove that I can post 300 dps on a regular basis during groups with my gear spells etc. Have you seen any other Berserkers producing this kind of DPS without Rampage? So maybe, just maybe their is something to the strategy I use to play my Berserker and maybe not every person with my stuff could play like I do. I wanted to post suggestions for Berserkers to Maximize their DPS according to what I have found that works, and by using my DPS as evidence that I'm not some newb shooting his mouth off. The point of this post was informative and not meant as a challenge to the manhood of any other berserker. I learned how to do damage as well as I do, through not only gear, but by looking at what other people said on these boards as well. My hope was that someone could look at what I do, throw in their own splash of style and make something even better. Sigh....Heiro Crook numbers coming tonight or tomorrow to give a more representative parse.
Message Edited by Sabin the Great on 04-13-2005 03:44 PM
Message Edited by Sabin the Great on 04-13-2005 03:45 PM

With all due respect, I would like to ask which parser you're running? I understand Statlyzer only begins parsing once everyone has engaged the targeted mob/encounter, whereas combatstats parses as soon as a group member attacks a mob, until that mob/encounter is dead. Thus Statlyzer could parse in-correct numbers. I skimmed a few posts, so someone might have already mentioned this. I know that procs are a ton of DPS, however, I believe parsers (atleast mine seems to, I could be mistaken because I haven't tested enough to know for certain [I use combatstats]) credit damage shields to the person getting hit (the MT, you). I do know for sure that reactive heal effects are credited to the tank in parse logs, so perhaps damage shields are the same.

I'm not saying in any way you're not doing those DPS numbers, and I understand the procs are tons of damage added on, but I was wondering if you could clear up those questions for me. Also, keep in mind I'm only 35 and I'm not familiar with all the highend extra proc buffs, I want to be sure for myself there's no added damage from anything other than the procs.

On Topic: I use a similiar strategy at Lv35, but I never use Blood Rage that often. Sounds decent strategy to me.
Message Edited by Norgoz on 04-13-2005 05:31 PM

Not accounting for any other procs then the ones a weapon has, wouldn't dual wield be better then two-handed according to this post? For example:
Weapon I have in mind is Marran's Cudgel (1.7/3)*12 = 6.8% now you'd times this by two since each weapon has a chance to proc one weapon's effect. Use a bow to test this with any melee weapon with a proc for easiest example. So then one of them alone would be 13.6%, while if you get two that's 27.2% chance to proc that'd be better then the RGF or am I missing something?

I use combatstats parser and I don't believe I had any damage shield procs placed on me by other sources. And for the record we do get credit for the damage done by damage shields if we have them on us.

Great post Sabin.

Thank you for clearing that up Sabin, I appreciate it.

Ya man they altered things (was it a couple months back?) so that procs per minute with ANY weap should be close to the same (thus delay adjusted PPM should be equal). This does mean on a per swing basis a slower weap has a greater chance to proc than a faster; they both shoudl get close to the same PPM that way.
As far as the Flail vs Crook; well I think the true DPS delta would be from the inate Flail proc damage. The Flail and Crook SHOULD have about the same PPM (unless cause the Flail is a master drop it has a greater artificial PPM). Only way you are gonna find that out is to parse a bunch of fights and log PPM.

There's no 'artificial PPM', the proc rates are easy to calculate by examining them - "10% chance to proc" means "10% chance to fire the effect every 3 seconds on auto-attack".
Just to re-state again...
The effect on the flail has a 12% chance to proc every 3 seconds, the effect on the crook has a 5% chance to proc every 3 seconds. This should equate to an average of 2.4 vs 1 procs per minute, which is nowhere near the same. You would see these rates pan-out correctly if you parse them while on auto-attack (of course, you need to scale for any haste you have).
There is nothing wrong with this - the flail is a master drop and supposed to have a very nice effect on it. What is flawed, however is that when you start using combat arts the 2.4 : 1 factor does not stay constant, it raises to around 4 : 1.
Further, any other proc effects on your character become 60% more potent while you wield the flail versus the crook.
Testing last night with the crook, around 50% of my damage came from procs (crook proc, blood rage, anarchy, master rages, dirge/fury/illusionist/wizard proc buffs), usually pulling ~200dps (more on AoE fights) - so ~100 melee, ~100 procs.
Using the flail it would have looked more like ~110 melee, ~180 procs, for ~290 dps as standard (and easily show the regular 300-400 dps attested to above).
45% more damage by using a weapon which is supposed to be in the order of 10-15% better... Similarly, 40% more damage than the Prismatic Greatsword of the Scale, which is supposed to be very similar in damage.

(Also should note that damage from proc buffs should really be attributed to the caster of the buff as it's damage-by-proxy, so it's not actually Berserker damage coming at 300dps+. But whoever it is attributed to, it is not supposed to scale so dramatically when the target changes weapons).

Pin,
Please read again. Listed pct means ZIPPO (although I appreciate SOE listing it). Actual parses mean something and is the only meaningful way to analyze this...calculating anything based on listed pct is taking SOE at their word...with all due respect I wouldnt do that and state it as a fact.
If you read *carefully* you will understand what I meant by "artificial PPM". In EQ1 they had delay scaled PPM (set to target of 2.0 PPM w/o any AA pts). It was discovered VIA PARSING that some weapons had an artificial PPM mod added to them (Bloodfrenzy being the first discovered >scaled 2PPM). My point is that the Flail (and other master class weaps) MAY have this attribute (but you wont KNOW until you parse).
Edit: Heh but I read above you did parse (hah somuch for my reading comprehension), but did you pull the raw data out, and log the PPM with the two weap types? Its fairly simple, pull out the # procs and normalize on a per minute basis using start/stop time stamps.

Message Edited by CherobylJoe on 04-14-2005 11:05 AM

OK I'll make this swift. In order for your explanation of my flail to explain how I do all my damage on a single ^^ yellow herioc mob. Lets assume from your 200 number. That my flail enables me to do an additional 140 dps. If I'm understanding your numbers right, for that to be true the following must all happen.

• I must be attacking at a rate of 2.5 attacks per second
• I must be landing ALL of those attacks from the MT position
• I must be proc'ing at a rate of 20% an attack over the course of 21-23 seconds
• I must be proc'ing at full damage every time

The math for a 140 dps increase from my flails procs. This means my proc is firing every 2 seconds at an average of 280 damage. We will assume that an average attack takes 1 second so 4 attacks in a 4 second period, and I will get off a maximum of 2 melee attacks in this period for 6 attacks total. We will use an 65% average speed increase over the course of the fight (buffs, berserk, FBSS). 6 attacks * 1.65 = 10 attacks over a 4 second period or 5 attacks ever 2 seconds. So if I'm attacking 5 times in 2 seconds and I need to proc every 2 seconds my chance to proc would be 20%. Note, that by only increasing my dps by 140 from my procs, I am still missing an addition 50 dps to get from 200-390.
So in other words, I'd have to be extrodinarily lucky, multiple times a night for my flail to be responsible for all this dps. So maybe, just maybe, its not all the flail.